carrier for pigment

[Randy Walker]

Hi all
I have a quick question about applying pigment. I am going to use black pigment to ebonize some tables in a couple of days. Do I have to use a carrier like BLO or lacquer when I apply it, or can I just thin the pigment with alcohol and apply it straight to the wood. It will be sprayed with poly or deft later for the finish.

Randy Walker

[sheldon pettit]

Hi all
I have a quick question about applying pigment. I am going to use black pigment to ebonize some tables in a couple of days. Do I have to use a carrier like BLO or lacquer when I apply it, or can I just thin the pigment with alcohol and apply it straight to the wood. It will be sprayed with poly or deft later for the finish.

Randy Walker

Contrary to what others may tell you, it is not necessary to have a binder to make a pigmented stain, it just helps if the piece[s] are going to be handled, if not then be my guest! Now for the real question - are you expecting to get a black look with pigments alone? What wood are you putting it on, light or dark? you must keep in mind - binder or no binder all of the excess must be wiped off, you can not leave any excess on the surface, if that is your intent i would advise you to use black dye instead and then if you want you can apply your pigment over the dye once you have obtained the blackness from the dye needed ok?

[Randy Walker]

Thank you Sheldon
The wood is poplar and my primary concern is adhesion. The tables will be used in a restaurant and I don’t want a finish failure due to the pigment not allowing the finish to adhere to the wood. I am leaning strongly t mixing the pigment with thinned Deft to help bond the top coat.


Randy Walker

[sheldon pettit]

Thank you Sheldon
The wood is poplar and my primary concern is adhesion. The tables will be used in a restaurant and I don’t want a finish failure due to the pigment not allowing the finish to adhere to the wood. I am leaning strongly t mixing the pigment with thinned Deft to help bond the top coat.


Randy Walker

Are these "tops" Randy? If so - may i ask why you chose such a soft wood? You might possibly want to rethink your choice there unless this is customer specified. Though i have nothing against Deft, i personally would not recommend it for restaurant tops or any tops that will see lots of wear and cleaning. I'm still not sure if your looking for a solid black or a transparent black? If you stain them with a black pigment you will find them not to be as black as you would get with a black dye, better to dye them first and then if you want or need to you can apply a pigment stain over the dye for opacity if needed or desired. I'm not sure black pigment will get you where you want to go if your looking for total opacity ok?

[Scott Holmes]

I would also discourage you from using lacquer as a restuarant table top unless it's a catalyzed lacquer. Deft will not hold up well. In a restuarant I would encourage you to find a KCMA certified finish.

As for the black coloring... India ink or dye will work well. If you want to end up with no grain showing use a black lacquer or Target's EM6500. I think their EM8000 conversion varnish is KCMA certified.

[Randy Walker]

We wanted red oak but the “designer” specified poplar. I am only using Deft as a carrier to keep adhesion problems down. They will get a good top coat of Minwax poly. As to the final blackness my local customer will have to decide how dark he wants me to make them.
My biggest concern is keeping the finish from failing because the pigment turned loose of the wood.

If I had more time I would use maple wood, dyes and BLO with pigment to get the deep rich black that we all love, then top coat it with one of Target coatings array of fine finishes. But this is a rush order. It has to be truck ready by Friday afternoon.

Randy Walker

[sheldon pettit]

Gotcha!! good luck!!

[Randy Walker]

Soooo
do you think the deft will work for the carrier??

[Scott Holmes]

Yes I think the Deft will work marginally well... NO!, I don't think the Minwax Poly is a good choice as a top coat. Poly can have trouble sticking to lacquer or anything else for that matter.

Poly wont be "cured " for 30+ days. You may want to reconsider your top coat.

[sheldon pettit]

Soooo
do you think the deft will work for the carrier??

Have to agree with Scott on the deft, plus i don't understand why you cant just use dye instead of pigments, dye needs no binder and if mixed with alcohol will dry just as fast as a pigment in alcohol, Plus it won't cause any adhesion problems what so ever - it "soaks into the wood" You could if you want add a little pigment to it, say 5% if you want a little top color and opacity though. I also don't know of any finish i would recommend to be ready to install and use in a few days time after finishing except maybe polyester and or a 2K barrier coat that dries relatively fast and hard, but with your short deadline, i would not even consider a fast dry lacquer, let alone deft. I'm concerned no matter what you use there is not enough time to accomplish what is needed. On top of this i see problems even with moving them as to damages if not cured enough to stack or whatever. I'm assuming there are quite a few tops, seeing it's a restaurant, but even if its only a half dozen or so, it could still be problematic.

So I'm trying to put myself in your shoes - if it were me i would tell the customer that any finish i could use would be second choice as to the time frame as to longevity and endurance features needed or expected. The way i see it, if someone ask me to do something i can't do properly in the allotted time, and turn out a first rate product, then i would rather not take it on to begin with. I don't see it as my fault someone else waited till the last minute to have something done and it becoming "my" problem to deal with. I always educate my customers as to what can be done in what time frames, so i never ran into problems like this, usually i add some time to a project not lessen it. I would rather loose the work than loose my reputation when down the road the customer comes back complaining about how terrible the finish held up. But - I'm not you, so I will leave it to you to do what you see as necessary ok? And again good luck if you go forward with it.

[Randy Walker]

Thank you Scott and Sheldon
I will pass on these recommendations to my customer. There are 22 tables only 6 of them get black the rest get mahogany stain. I regularly bill 15k a year to this company so I do my best to accommodate his demands. I am going to start keeping some of the better finishes on hand for jobs like this though.
Ill post a few pics when its all done.

Randy Walker

[sheldon pettit]

Lookinf forward to them Randy, keep us posted on how they hold up to if you can ok?

[Randy Walker]

Well it worked. Armed with your tales of caution and my expertise in woodworking I was able to convince my client to spring for some real ebony stain that I doctored with the black pigment to intensify the blackness. And the people at the paint store talked him into catalyzed lacquer instead of the Deft. He also got a 24 hour reprieve on the delivery time so they will leave tomorrow instead of today. I snapped the pic below before I left his shop.
Thank you for all of your help. It is for reasons like this that I am a continuing contributor to this wonderful forum.
Many thanks
Randy Walker

[sheldon pettit]

Very nice Randy, lets hope that they have time enough to dry and hold up over time now - that's still my greatest concern as to putting them into use that quickly after finishing, continued sucess!!!