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Thread: Luthiers - What are the myths or misconceptions guitarist have about the instrument

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    What is this? His guitar tone sounds pretty thin and shrill. Actually sounds like a Boss SD1 or similar.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Morgan View Post
    What is this? His guitar tone sounds pretty thin and shrill. Actually sounds like a Boss SD1 or similar.
    What about the clean sound? That's a JC-120...solid state beginning to end. I doubt anyone could listen and pick that out from a Twin.

  3. #18
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    The Roland gets consistent, high praise. Clean tones are not really a problem for SS amps. Replicating tube distortion is a bit trickier. I think for the average listener, it is virtually impossible to tell SS from tube. I suspect a player can tell a difference primarily because the SS amp responds differently than the tube amp.

    However, IMO, we are getting at the center of the electric guitar universe. Electric players fixate over the most minor of details all the while completely ignoring the amplifier. There's a whole bucketful of components in the amp that would drive a guitarist crazy if they popped the chassis and looked things over. Output tranny, tubes, coupling caps, resistors, speaker(s)....
    Measure twice, cut three times, start over. Repeat as necessary.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    What about the clean sound? That's a JC-120...solid state beginning to end. I doubt anyone could listen and pick that out from a Twin.
    The JC120 is legendary. I'd agree most people probably couldn't tell the difference when they are played clean.

  5. #20
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    Never cared much for Fender Twins. KInda shrill and ice-pick like until they are cranked. When cranked, you don't want to be near them. My son's high school had a 80's JC-120. it was a workhorse and performed adequately doing a number of different things. SS amps tend to sound very compressed; even more so than tube amps. The electric guitar is already heavily compressed, especially ones that modulate more in the pre-amp section than in the power amp portion of the circuit. Put pedals in front of it and you can easily end up with mud. SS amps had one structural advantage. It is far easier to have more vesatility inate to the amp than the vast majority of tube amps. Some friends in a cover band swear by the amp and they can coax quite a few sounds out of it.
    Shawn

    "no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

    "I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"

  6. #21
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    the 120 was my favorite ss amp. I got a Standel a few years ago,the EXCELLENT repro of the Standel that Chet Atkins and the other famous players used back in the 1950's,even down to the vintage JB Lansing 15" speaker in it. I put it through the JC 120, and it sounds like a HUGE Standel. I play clean,and it is a truly remarkable sound. BUT,it will show up the SLIGHTEST playing error like no other amp.

  7. #22
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    I might add that I have owned a very large number of amps over the years. After all,THE AMP is what you really hear. Not at all to discount the guitar,pickups,etc. At one time I owned 19 amps,and have owned and sold/traded off many others. If you can afford the $3500.00 for a Standel from Requisite Electronics,and you play CLEAN,I urge you to try one. He finds original 15" JBL speakers and builds them into the amp. Now,I'll warn you that the JBL cone does not "propagate" a lot,and I'd like more bass response. However,sending the signal from the Standel's chassis(takes a special cord)to a Roland jazz chorus 120 WITH the old aluminum dome speakers(new ones don't have those speakers),you will get the most remarkable tone you've ever heard,with all the bass you'll ever need. Sparkling highs,just amazing. You need those aluminum domes to get those highs,though!!!

    The guy who makes the Standel amps is a really good person to deal with. Real careful about his work. He uses hospital grade plugs on the cords!! Great guy,great work. The Standel WAS the amp to have if you were a great player back in the 1950's. Only about 50 were ever made,though. Chet Atkins,Joe Maphis,Buddy Merril,ALL the great players had one,it seems.They went out of fashion due to the advent of distortion. Standel listened to their engineers,not the players,and lost out. I play clean,though,and care nothing for distortion. If anyone's near,you could stop and try mine.

  8. #23
    John, when you talk about buffered effects, do you mean the processing amplifiers and that type of stuff? They just remove the sharp edge from the attack when you play, it's just enough to be really irritating, and even if there is milliseconds of delay, it just takes the crispness out of playing.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    John, when you talk about buffered effects, do you mean the processing amplifiers and that type of stuff? They just remove the sharp edge from the attack when you play, it's just enough to be really irritating, and even if there is milliseconds of delay, it just takes the crispness out of playing.
    The "buffers" are really little amplifiers. They present a very high impedance input for guitars and essentially decouple the guitar side of the chain with everything that follows. Nearly every effect requires some sort of pre-amp stage to drive the effect circuitry, even if it's just a simple op-amp.

    That's why I don't use anything but true bypass pedals anymore. When a true bypass is switched out, it no longer goes through the pedal circuitry. Many many many pedals NEVER take that input buffer out of the circuit, even when the actual "effect" part of the pedal not active. Depending on the quality of the buffer, and the kind of amp you're playing through, this can make a very small difference or can make a HUGE difference. When I was playing through my Fuchs ODS, the difference in sound and feel was as absolute deal breaker. Playing through a Marshall? I can hear it but it doesn't ruin the sound. I mostly just plug straight into a twin or a little modeling practice amp now....I can definitely hear it through the Twin. I can't hear any difference through the modeling amp.

    There are advantages to buffers. If you're more than 10' or 20' away from your amp, you really want to put a buffer in there somewhere. Buffered effects tend to be very quiet, and are especially quiet switching. True bypass effects often have a loud "click" associated with them.

    Anyhow, the effect of the buffer is that it typically gives a bit of a compressed feel to the entire signal, and you definitely loose some sensitivity to your touch. The Fuchs is so incredibly responsive that it's really noticeable. I even tried putting all my effects in an effects loop. This particular one was supposed to have a world class buffer. You could even dial in some "sag" to try and mimic being plugged into the front end of an amp. Not even close, I'm afraid. I've since sold off the entire pedal board, my Marshall and my Fuchs, and now just plug straight into a twin. It feels good to keep it simple like that!
    Last edited by John Coloccia; 12-06-2012 at 4:20 PM.

  10. #25
    Ahh...slightly different than I was thinking. I don't think I'd heard of fuchs, but about 5 years ago I dumped every single one of my pedals because I was tired of fooling with them, and I haven't played in front of people for 12 years so I don't need any versatility. Maybe I should've just looked for a couple that were better made.

    I could stand to have a better (and smaller) amplifier, but right now, all I have is a Rivera Fandango 2x12. I would kind of like to switch to some sort of 6L6 boutique amp, but I'd have to find someone willing to do a trade, and people only ever seem to want to trade something 1/2 as good when you're looking for a trade.

    Maybe george would sell me something vintage off of his huge pile
    Last edited by David Weaver; 12-07-2012 at 8:43 AM.

  11. #26
    The Fuchs was one of the first Dumble clones...maybe the first. Really incredible sounding and feeling amplifier. I dumped it because it was just time for something different. Sometimes you meed to change things up a bit to keep from getting stale.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    Sometimes you meed to change things up a bit to keep from getting stale.

    Roger that, sometimes different is good, even if it's not technically "better". Sometimes it's nice to go out to youtube and watch videos of other people doing stuff with your equipment, too, just to get ideas - just got a refresher on my amplifier, and a few new kinks other people do make it seem like worth playing with again. Stealing someone else's creativity, I guess. Like the honkey tonk man said about his elvis type wrestling gimmick "I didn't come up with the gimmick, I stole someone else's idea, just like everyone else".

  13. #28
    As for solid state: I have been playing for many years, 10 of those I was full time. I cannot say for sure I could do it in a blind test but this is my impression. I can sit around and play through a tube amp for a long time. I might be ok with the sound of a solid state but my mind will quickly lose interest in playing and I will be ready to quit.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin McMichael View Post
    As for solid state: I have been playing for many years, 10 of those I was full time. I cannot say for sure I could do it in a blind test but this is my impression. I can sit around and play through a tube amp for a long time. I might be ok with the sound of a solid state but my mind will quickly lose interest in playing and I will be ready to quit.
    I think your observation is truer than you give it credit. Tube amps are in themselves an instrument. You don't so much as play through a tube amp as you 'play' the tube amp. Touch response, tonal sensitivity to your attack, subtle, nuanced tone/gain shifts that you consciously or not, control and manipulate are present in tube amps. Digital processors, or more importantly the programming of the models, hasn't captured those attributes as of yet.

    It's a matter of time though.

    Meanwhile, the average listener is oblivious.
    Measure twice, cut three times, start over. Repeat as necessary.

  15. Greg is right

    "Marketing gimmick".

    Sell the sizzle, not the steak.

    Musicians (Folk (flat top), jazz (archtop), concert (nylon string)) they ALL want something
    new. They are ALL looking for that certain sound, that cutting edge, and they demand it
    from a builder. You MUST devise a new and better bracing system, hand-pad a shellac finish
    that is tougher than urethane, and come up with a new shape that is visually appealing and
    sits comfortably in their lap. Then they reject anything that's not totally traditional!

    If that's not bad enough, the electric players are worse! They want a Flying V that looks
    like a B.C. Rich then refuse to pay for it since it's not an exact copy of a Les Paul!

    -Max

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