Staining Maple with TransTint Dye in Shellac?

[Dale Critchlow]

I am about to stain a set of maple dining room chairs I am making for my daughter. I have been experimenting with water soluble aniline dyes (Honey Amber) and have found some blotching.

Teri Masasuri describes finishing bird's-eye maple in the May/June 2003 issue of Fine Woodworking. In particular, she describes using a concentrated dye such as TransTint in clear shellac.

Questions: Would this give less blotching than using water soluble dye? Are there some downsides to using dye in shellac?

By the way, I did read the thread started by Scott Parks in October 2004 which had some good information including spraying of alcohol soluble dyes.


Thanks,

Dale Critchlow

[Keith Christopher]

Dale,


Good advice will follow here I'm sure. But I always recommend going home on this sort of question. Homestead finishing has a forum moderated by owner/finish guru Jeff Jewitt. pop on over there and ask as well. Those folks LOVE finishing !
I can't tell how many answers I have gotten on there for finishing. I've far from a guru but man I sure get nice smooth shiny polys and more (note the use of the word MORE as I'm inept here) even staining/dyeing of woods. google it.


KEith

[Jason Ochoada]

Hey Dale,

I am far from an expert but I recently sprayed a hard maple bed that I made with transtint dyes mixed in water. I was amazed how even the color went on. It was a great experience for me and I bet it would work for you also.

I haven't used the dye shellac option although it was suggested to me when I inquired about preventing splotching. I was just worried because I was trying to dye large panels that if I didn't move quick enough I may not have enough time to cover the whole panel before it would start to dry. In your case on chairs it probably would work great because you could cover all the surfaces quickly and evenly.


Good luck
Jason

[Alan Turner]

I'll weigh in a bit here, although finishing is not my favoirte task. A dye, be its medium water or alcohol, will color maple to a greater extent than a large molecule "stain" becuase it will penetrate the hard maple more effectively. As far as using a dye mixed with shellac, this simply colors the shellac, and is part of the film finish. Chip it, and the color is gone. It is in the film, not the wood. It is generally called "toning". I use a toning shellac to even out color variations. or to slightly change a color. For example, on the hutch on my website, I used a toned shellac to achieve the color I wanted and knew that the piece owuld not be banged around. But, on a chair, or table, I would be more cautious with this approach. You can also use toning to repair a piece where there has been a patch, or a chip or scuff which exposes non-patina'ed wood (Is that a word?) Toning is not terribly light fast; it will fade with time in sun. If you are going to tone shellac, then cover the toning coats with clear coats for durability. And, be carefull in sanding back as you will remove dust nibs and color together. Finally, water is fine medium with a hand application, but alcohol as an agent is better sprayed as you can better keep a wet edge.

[lou sansone]

a few questions I would ask are

1. are you working with hard maple or soft?
2. what grit have you sanded to ( assuming that you have not hand scraped the entire set of chairs)
3. how are you applying the dye? by hand or spraying it on.

lou

[Jim Becker]

Adding the dye to the shellac (or any other "clear" finish) results in a toner. For the most part, the dye will not be penetrating the wood anywhere close to what it would if applied directly to the wood, whether you are using a water soluble or an alcohol soluble dye. Maple is challenging to color, but dyes are the best, IMHO, for the job. I primarily use water-soluble dye for this since it can be hand-applied. Alcohol soluble dyes are best sprayed on as they flash off so fast it's very hard to avoid or get rid of overlaps.

One technique that can be very nice with maple is to apply a water based dye, allow it to dry and then sand it back so that the dye only remains in the more porous figure. This can be repeated as needed to further highlight the effect. Once that is done, shellac, alone or dyed as a toner is used to seal things and adjust the overall coloration of the wood before moving to the chosen top coat finish. Many of the "really awesome" examples of figured maple I've seen were finished this way. Adjusting the color of the dye(s) used varies the effect.

One thing to remember about using dyes: After you apply them, the color will be "not" what you are looking for in the immediate sense. They will be dull and lifeless until you move forward with the next finishing steps. For this reason, it is ESSENTIAL that you do your finishing regimen all the way through on scraps of the same material your project is made with to insure that the final effect is what you desire. Plan for this when you are acquiring materials! You must have enough scrap to do several iterations as you adjust your regimen before you move on to the real project.

[Tim Sproul]

"honey amber."

I'd think you might be better off just using one of the darker shellacs. Garnet. Seedlac. Get a pound of several different types.......give it a couple days to dissolve. You can easily control color intensity by how thick a layer you put on. With shellac, you generally control how thick by how many coats....and the "cut" of shellac you apply in each coat. Shellac gets fairly glossy as it gets thick....especially the lighter colored shellacs like super blonde and platina.

I've never been a fan of water soluble finishes for furniture - they raise the grain and increase the timeline for a finish schedule. The only water-base I like is paint when trimming a house. Another alternative is to use BLO. BLO will darken with age....and hard maple will also darken a bit with age although not to the extent that cherry does.

I also like your idea of finishing a chair with shellac....and would recommend you stay away from dyeing the shellac. In the future, the seat and back and lower legs and probably the rungs (who can resist propping there heels into the lower rungs of a chair??????) will show wear. With shellac, you can renew the finish in a matter of a couple hours, if not minutes. If you dye, you'll need to carefully document how much dye you add to how much shellac and get that ratio again. Otherwise you might wind up needing to refinish the entire chair.....rather than renew a few worn areas. You should still carefully document which color shellac you applied....can even write that on the bottom side of the seat apron.

[Dale Critchlow]

Thanks guys for all of the great information. I need to do some careful studying of all of the messages and try Jeff Jewitt's forum as Kieth suggested.


Another Question: It seems to me that I can see the porous areas which will blotch when the dye applied. Will it improve matters if I sand those areas particulary well with a finer grit paper so they absorb less dye?


More Information: I am using hard maple and am leaning toward using water soluble dye. I have read that you should sand to about 150 grit for water soluble dyes to get better uniformity. So my plan is to both scrape and sand but finish with sanding. Scraping is to much more pleasant to do and faster than sanding.

By the way, there are eight chairs each with five curved pieces. Therefore I have lots and lots of scraps so I can experiment to my hearts content.

Dale Critchlow

[Charles Hans]

Have you ever thought about Leather dyes? they will color wood very nicely and give vibrant color if that is what you are trying to acheive. Try Tandyleather.com fo their dye selection.

Charles Hans

[Rob Millard]

I would be wary of adding dye to shellac, because of the difficulty in applying it without getting lap marks, especially on a piece as complex as a chair. I have had dark un-dyed shellac leave noticeable streaks, because I did a poor job of brushing it on. I have used tinted shellacs to color flat areas with great success, but I apply it very thin and build up the color slowly, something that might be difficult on a chair.

There are a few ways to overcome the splotching a common with maple. One is to apply a coat of thinned down liquid hide glue. This will control the absorption of the dye, resulting in a more even color. Another way is to brush on some distilled water, just prior to applying the dye. This is the same concept behind the conditioner sold for Minwax stains. As a side note, a woodworking acquaintance told me he uses the Minwax conditioner under water based dyes with excellent results. This seems unbelievable to me, because oil and water don’t mix, but he is an excellent woodworker, and I trust his word, although I have not tried it myself. The final option is to spray the dye on, almost dry, and not wipe it. This is almost certainly the way Jeff Jewitt will recommend, since this is where I heard it. It works beautifully, if you have control of your gun, something I’m not very good at. I use my spray gun much like a shotgun, set for a wide pattern, point, pull the trigger and I’m bound to hit something.

I’ve always sanded wood to 320 grit when using dyes. I’ve never been happy with a scraped only surface for any finish, especially water based ones, due to the raised grain.

[Michael Pfau]

I have had good luck with Trans Tint. Put it on with a brush evenly. Let dry. The water based dye will raise the wood, sand lightly with 800 grit until all the hair is gone, this will take the dye off the top some and leave the dye in the pores. Then shellac as many coats as you want. I have had good results with this on hard maple, about 3 coats of shallac, and wipe on poly for 2 or 3 more coats.

[Dave Macy]

Adding the dye to the shellac (or any other "clear" finish) results in a toner. For the most part, the dye will not be penetrating the wood anywhere close to what it would if applied directly to the wood, whether you are using a water soluble or an alcohol soluble dye. Maple is challenging to color, but dyes are the best, IMHO, for the job. I primarily use water-soluble dye for this since it can be hand-applied. Alcohol soluble dyes are best sprayed on as they flash off so fast it's very hard to avoid or get rid of overlaps.

One technique that can be very nice with maple is to apply a water based dye, allow it to dry and then sand it back so that the dye only remains in the more porous figure. This can be repeated as needed to further highlight the effect. Once that is done, shellac, alone or dyed as a toner is used to seal things and adjust the overall coloration of the wood before moving to the chosen top coat finish. Many of the "really awesome" examples of figured maple I've seen were finished this way. Adjusting the color of the dye(s) used varies the effect.

One thing to remember about using dyes: After you apply them, the color will be "not" what you are looking for in the immediate sense. They will be dull and lifeless until you move forward with the next finishing steps. For this reason, it is ESSENTIAL that you do your finishing regimen all the way through on scraps of the same material your project is made with to insure that the final effect is what you desire. Plan for this when you are acquiring materials! You must have enough scrap to do several iterations as you adjust your regimen before you move on to the real project.

Sorry for digging up an old thread Mr. Becker. But I have been trying to add transtint to a dye to use on rock maple and yeah, all the scrap I have tested on (by rubbing) looks horrible. So I want to try it as water based. Do I really just mix it with water? Do you seal it first with sealcoat to avoid the blotching? I'll then be finishing it with a topcoat of shellac (prob leave as 2# cut unless you advise otherwise). Either way I'll test but any info would be appreciated.

[Brice Rogers]

When using transtint with water, I try to raise the grain first. Spritz it with water, let it dry and sand with 320, 400 or your favorite grit. Do it again and then apply transtint. Very little grain will be raised.

I tried using a sealer coat of shellac and did a subsequent application of transtint. It looked okay but I found that it didn't penetrate. When I rubbed on a friction finish (BLO, shellac and DNA) 90 percent of the dye came off.

[George Bokros]

I finished a hard maple cabinet for my wife. I used TransTint dye mixed in water and applied by hand with blue shop towels and cotton cloths but I first applied Charles Neil Blotch Control and had no blotching what-so-ever. Finished with GF AmrSeal as top coat.

[John TenEyck]

Dye doesn't penetrate wood very deeply, a couple of thou, at best. Using dye instead of toners because you think it won't chip off as easily is false logic. Ever sand through your sealer or first topcoat and right through your dye, too?

The only way I've found to get an even color on maple, hard or soft, is to spray the color on, whether it be dye in water or DNA, or a toner. Any other approach leads to blotching for me. Some folks call that figure. I'm not one of them. Figure is birdseye, curly, etc. Blotching is ugly. There are concoctions out there to help minimize blotching with hand applied color. I'm told they work. My solution was to spray.

John