Shortening hand saws

[Mike Holbrook]

I see a fair number of these around. I am wondering if removing a little from the small end of the saw creates any sort of problem? I think this may get done for a couple reasons 1) dings/cracks or other damage to the small end of the saw is fairly common 2) as the saw gets older and the plate gets thinner, maybe removing a little from the end results in a shorter but better plate.

Since many saw plates have some taper top to bottom, wouldn't thinner plates start to loose that taper? I am not sure if the taper is typically the same for the length of the saw, but might removing a little off the end result in a saw tip with more taper? I imagine any attempt to remove a piece from the tip of a saw should proceed slowly so as not to change the temper of the steel.

[george wilson]

Just shear it off with a sheet metal shear. Doesn't hurt the shear at all as the spring steel cracks ahead of the shear's knife.

I wouldn't worry about a thin end. My favorite crosscut saw years ago had a very small tip on it. I could just use the tip area to cut gradual curves when making harpsichords. Obviously,I didn't want to jam such a saw,so care and a little skill was required. I have seen woodworking "personalities" who seemed to lack that,though!! Are they real craftsmen or "politician" woodworkers?

[David Weaver]

No worries, George, nobody seems to be able to figure out how to properly advise people to use a double iron, either. I see intermittent posting from various folks asking people who advised against the double iron how they should use one, and asking company reps who made planes where the double iron either can't reach the edge of the iron due to the hole location on a cap iron or only just does. The corresponding advice given to the people asking questions makes little practical sense, about as much sense as it makes to hustle a saw around and bind it in a kerf.

Mike, the saw should be double tapered if it's of good quality and from the golden age of saw making (presume you're talking about carpenters saws and panel saws).

In reality, if you cut back a carpenter's saw by removing from the end (by cutting) and the tooth line (through cutting or sharpening), it might not be a lot different than a panel saw (which in good quality saws will be thinner than the corresponding panel saw). The only thing you'll have to deal with is that you'll probably still have a large handsaw handle on a smaller saw, and it might look goofy if the toothline terminates in the handle. But the top part of a good carpenter's saw should have a thinner taper in the top, and the thickness 1/3rd of the way up the plate should be thinner than at the original tooth line, and thinner still at the front than the back, even if it is still overall a little heavier than a panel or smaller saw.

[Mike Holbrook]

Sounds pretty much like my thoughts so far. Since, for example, a 26" hand saw may have a thicker plate to start with than a 24" panel saw, cutting a couple inches off the end may produce a little heavier 24" saw. In the case of a 26" D-8 swayback saw, cutting it back a couple inches might leave one with something closer to a straight back saw. It seems to me that as long as the buyer/maker knows what they are looking for or creating the result might be relatively predictable.

I see some strange saw lengths for auction and I often wonder what those saws started out as 50-100 years ago. Some sellers, frequently the responsible sharpener/restorers, are careful to say exactly what they did to a saw. There are other saws for sale by less knowledgable people who may or may not know what they are selling. These saws may not offer much information regarding what that saw is or started out as....

[David Weaver]

Given where the marks are on some of the shortened back saws out there (out toward the toe on the spine), I think there are definitely cut down saws being sold as rare original saws. I wouldn't buy any of that stuff as a user. Any time the rare can be imitated easily and for money, there will be trouble.

Unscrupulous sellers are looking for uneducated buyers, and they aren't interested in figuring out what they actually have sometimes because they don't want to be pinned to telling the truth about it.

Fortunately, the stuff that was common 100 years ago is inexpensive now and is *really* good stuff.

[Andrae Covington]

I think many of the old saws that look "stubby" were cut down to fit in someone's portable toolbox. However, for a long time Disston offered most of their saw lines down to 16", sometimes even 14". In the 30's and 40's the shorter lengths began to be discontinued.

[Mike Holbrook]

Inexpensive? maybe relatively but the nice saws I find for auction by guys who recondition and sharpen them can be more or as expensive as contemporary LN or Wenzloffs. The market for the good to very good saws seems pretty competitive, especially those reconditioned by known restorers. There are saws that sellers claim are "cut town for tool box use". I think they are often saws that had an issue on the tip or were long saws that were not selling. I imagine some are not what they claim, but some of them have enough pictures for the buyer to be relatively certain of what they would be getting, IMHO.

Then there are some saws that look good but have a crack, bad pitting, only on the saws tip. I was also wondering about shortening saws that have been used to the point that the tip may be prohibitively thin for "normal" use.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the ones done by Azmica, pete taran, or really anyone who resharpens saws are high dollar.

For a user saw, you want something that has no rust or just light surface rust, is straight, has all of its teeth, most of the plate thickness and teeth that are relatively close to the shape you want them to be after sharpening.

I have spent up to $80 for a saw (for a long 4 1/2 point richardson brothers rip saw) and as little as $3 for a nice nibbed 6 point rip saw that I couldn't figure out what it was. I have 3 #12s that cost an average of $60, and have had 4 d8s that have cost an average of probably $30. All of them except for two required about an hour of cleanup and some time with a file. My favorite spear and jackson 12 point 26" crosscut saw was $12, but I did have to file new teeth into it and that was a bear. Surprisingly, the only dud in all of that was a D8 that was too hard to file.

I think I could put the whole pile of them back together (if I lost them) for somewhere around the same amount as I did spend on them, and I have seen a fair number of saws at fleas for cheaper since I am no longer looking for any saws.

[Mike Holbrook]

Sounds like we have a fairly similar nest of saws David I think all mine were bought for less than $70 until recently, including a Disston 12, 16, a couple #7 and 3 D8's.... Except I have probably a half dozen that have issues that for me disqualify them for restoration and use in hard wood. I will probably sharpen a couple of those for construction projects. I just bought a Disston #9, restored and sharpened by someone who does it professionally. I wanted to see one done "right" and saw with it to see what a professional could do to maximize how well one of these tools works. It seems to me that the market for the top end saw models has gotten tougher in the last year. I think the professionals buy the $60 #12 saws, restore and sharpen them and resell them for $200-$300 and more. There seem to be three or four Professional guys who almost always have a few saws on auction. I think they must do well auctioning because if you go to these guys web sites looking for saws to buy directly, the prices seem worse than auctions and everything they list is typically sold.

I like 24" saws, which are harder to find, especially in the more popular models, so if I find a good deal on a 26" I may just go for it. I am 5'10" but measuring my reach the way Herman suggests I get the same measurement as my 5'4" wife.

[jason thigpen]

There is an excellent tutorial on doing just this in the FAQ section of this forum. In my opinion, if cutting a few inches off the end of the saw will extend its useful life, I say go for it.

[Chris Vandiver]

Sounds like we have a fairly similar nest of saws David I think all mine were bought for less than $70 until recently, including a Disston 12, 16, a couple #7 and 3 D8's.... Except I have probably a half dozen that have issues that for me disqualify them for restoration and use in hard wood. I will probably sharpen a couple of those for construction projects. I just bought a Disston #9, restored and sharpened by someone who does it professionally. I wanted to see one done "right" and saw with it to see what a professional could do to maximize how well one of these tools works. It seems to me that the market for the top end saw models has gotten tougher in the last year. I think the professionals buy the $60 #12 saws, restore and sharpen them and resell them for $200-$300 and more. There seem to be three or four Professional guys who almost always have a few saws on auction. I think they must do well auctioning because if you go to these guys web sites looking for saws to buy directly, the prices seem worse than auctions and everything they list is typically sold.

I like 24" saws, which are harder to find, especially in the more popular models, so if I find a good deal on a 26" I may just go for it. I am 5'10" but measuring my reach the way Herman suggests I get the same measurement as my 5'4" wife.

Maybe your wife has a large ape index?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Saw sharpener extraordinaire, the now deceased Tom Law, would search out those saw sharpened almost to a point. His claim was the craftsman who owned the saw loved it so much that he refused to replace it with a new saw. He shows a few saw like that in his saw sharpening video.

To me, it means nothing. I didn't have enough depth on my bench for full strokes with my saw for my Langdon miter box, so I shortened it about 1-1/2". Not much too it, just a bit more finesse needed in filing the spine to make the saw look like it always was that length.

George! Be careful calling out "woodworking personalities"! Many lurk on the forums and will call you out via PMs!

[Mike Holbrook]

Ape index? I am wondering what that term is inferring?

Tony I have the Tom Law sharpening DVD, His "affection" for saws with very worn plates however, is not what I chose to take to heart from the information. I think some of the professional guys just get tired of listening to clients obsessing over "finer points". Certainly a professional sharpener might be expected to promote sharpening old saws even with questionable plates vs discarding these older saws, it is what they do.

[Chris Vandiver]

Ape index? I am wondering what that term is inferring?

Tony I have the Tom Law sharpening DVD, His "affection" for saws with very worn plates however, is not what I chose to take to heart from the information. I think some of the professional guys just get tired of listening to clients obsessing over "finer points". Certainly a professional sharpener might be expected to promote sharpening old saws even with questionable plates vs discarding these older saws, it is what they do.

Google it.

[brian c miller]

Ape Index: Ratio of arm (wing) span to height. da Vinci's drawing, Vitruvian Man, sets AI to 1 for most humans.

Phelps and other athletes often are greater than one 1.