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Thread: Finish questions for first cherry project

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Zahn View Post
    - can you guys reccomend any specific dyes and/or shellac in the case that I end up going that route on this, or another piece?
    Dunno what Sheldon has to say....I get the impression that he sneaks out into the wilderness at the dead of night under a new moon, and mines secret ores and collects secret flora and makes his own stuff. Kind of a Hogwarts thing, I think. Or, maybe more like the 3 Witches scene from Macbeth..........


    Me - one of the proles - I use Transfast powdered dyes, mixed with water. Available at many stores, or from the source: Homestead Finishing. There are other reputable suppliers of dye as well - zero experience with them. I do have, however, experience with the liquid Transtint dyes.......and I turned to the Transfast powder some years ago, and greatly prefer them.

    Personally, I make my own shellac from flakes.....also from Homestead. There is a variety of other shellac flake suppliers that have proponents here, and I have no cause to argue with them. I simply have always been very happy with the stuff I get, and have no reason to make a change.

    EDIT: Oh, yeah - re: Prashun's comment on W'lox. I am more of a Behlen's Rockhard user, and from what I understand, it is even a bit more amber than the W'lox. Also, I just completed a couple curly maple hall tables dyed with vintage dk maple, and then P+L #38, which is much clearer than either. But.....I did not do as well with it - first time at bat on the #38 - it's application properties are noticeably different than the other two - to me at least - so I need more time on that horse to keep from falling off.
    Last edited by Kent A Bathurst; 11-06-2012 at 3:33 PM.
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  2. #17
    Jason-
    Kent's right: in full disclosure I am a Waterlox fan. There are a few other fantastic varnishes out there. I've never used Behlen's RH but hear wonderful things about it. The drawback for me is that it only comes full strength, and does not seem to like mineral spirits as a reducer (Kent, pls confirm that...) which means you have to get their special reducer also. Waterlox too makes full strength varnishes, but I find they too don't apply as well when thinned with MS as does the Waterlox OSF out of the can. Last, Waterlox OSF goes on high gloss but cures over a matter of weeks to a semigloss sheen. The ease of use (whether brushed or wiped), sheen, and flow makes the extra price worth it for me. Many ways to skin the cat.

    One more complication to beware of: Waterlox Original Sealer Finish comes in 2 formulations: ORIGINAL FORMULA (which is not VOC compliant) and VOC Compliant formulation. The dealers of even reputable sources might not be aware of the difference. I have only used the ORIGINAL formula and have heard that the new formula is not as easy to use.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 11-06-2012 at 4:32 PM.

  3. #18
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    Prashun -

    Again, one of them things where I have chosen not to fool with what works for me. I was advised early on by Scott "Obi-Wan" Holmes that he found W'lox worked fine with M/S as a reducer, but that he felt the Behlen's proprietary reducer worked better in the Behlen's than did M/S. So - that is all I have ever used. And - I thin in the 15 - 20 pct range for brushing, and 50 pct for wipe on. Final finish is fine, regardless of reduction and application method. In fact, I don't think I could ever brush it at less than, say, 10 pct. I just add a "glurg" or so of reducer until it hits a consistency in the cup that I like as I am brushing.

    But, at the same time, if you look at the price differential of W'lox + M/S versus Behlens + their reducer, it is basically pick'em on a dollar-for-dollar basis. When I order, I just order both the varnish and the reducer, so both are always on the shelf.

    Zero gripe with W'lox. I just ain't the guy to ask about that critter.

    One thing - the Behlens comes only in gloss - and it seems to me to retain that gloss. I had one big project where the client wanted satin/matte, and rubbing out an entire dining room was not practical. I used Behlens to build the finish, and then W'lox satin reduced to wipe-on as the last thin coat. Honestly made me gag to do that, but the client was ecstatic with the results, and she was paying the freight, so what do I know? One of those things where - literally -you get what you pay for. "Yes, Ma'am. I can do that, Ma'am".
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    (Humbly) Waterlox OSF is (unlike their other formulations) already thinned to be a wipe-on varnish. In my experience it requires no thinning even on raw wood.

    Also, I highly recommend finishing before assembly - EXCEPT for those parts that require post-assembly sanding to bring them flush. Pre-finishing like this makes the process easier (no corners to get into) and also seals the wood so that glue squeeze out during assembly is easily removed.
    LOL , sorry Prashun i got slightly carried away in stating "any Coating", almost all industrial coatings users as well as most custom shops, do-not use off the shelf slow-dry coatings like varnishes or oils,etc.. they rarely either brush or wipe except if absolutely necessary. In business, time is money, and the biggest obstacle to overcome to be profitable is mainly why. At times i forget that when commenting here and elsewhere But that does not negate the fact that even an already thin coating as what you speak of can be further thinned if needed to achieve more penetration into the surface if and when it is abraded to even finer grits than you have tried as yet. Give it a try sometime when you are between other projects and test to see ok?
    Sincerely,

    S.Q.P - SAM - CHEMMY.......... Almost 50 years in this art and trade and counting...

  5. #20
    Sheldon, Prashun, and Kent...thanks guys for some great input and insight into these different finishes; I feel much more prepared to go
    on with this project. I think I'm probably leaning towards going with the Waterlox this time around as a matter of keeping things simpler since I'm not very experienced

    I'll let you know how things work out.

    Thank you all!!

  6. #21
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    ""Dunno what Sheldon has to say....I get the impression that he sneaks out into the wilderness at the dead of night under a new moon, and mines secret ores and collects secret flora and makes his own stuff. Kind of a Hogwarts thing, I think. Or, maybe more like the 3 Witches scene from Macbeth..........""

    LOL, Thanks Kent, I'll add that to the list of other things i've been called including "Alchemist"

    As to Dye's and Shellac, There are only a small number of both world wide, Most all of the dyes and lac/shellac sold through the many retail or consumer market companies, including homestead, are merely buyers and re-distributors of the manufacturers of the products, either selling them in smaller quantities as purchased, or coming up with their own lines of premixed offerings of colors they have further formulated themselves. . This is mostly true of everything else we buy here anymore. Lac, as i'm sure you already know comes from only 3-4 places mainly that are of any real consequence, where it's harvested twice per year. India being the largest as of now and in the past. After harvesting and preliminary steps are done to remove the dye color that is used for dyeing fabrics mainly and the dross and lac bug bodies etc, it is called seed-lac, this is the base product used by everyone to further refine if needed or desired to make all the other lac products. And this is the difference in what is offered as the final product categories we purchase, based on what we read about each of the types characteristics ok? I could write a book on the processing and history of shellac, but hopefully what I'm writing now will suffice the average finishing forum participant.

    What is mainly important about lac is how it's processed, if the different solutions and chemicals of the lac industry are used, as has been for along time and still today, the lac becomes inferior to the solvent method and filtration methods used by other countries like Germany where bleaching is done by filtration and not chlorine therefore eliminating chloride binding which affects shelf-life of the end products. This along with other unused practices of old give a longer solubility life to the end product ranging from 5-7 years as compared to the long time older methods used which cut the shelf-life down to 2-3 tears at most. Now in no way does this mean that the Indian lacs are inferior as to their end uses, just that it degrades much quicker when stored. On the other-hand, lac that is the least processed at all, be it German or Indian etc., has proven itself still soluble after 2-3 decades in some instances if kept in air tight containers, i know i have some but it requires using either the seed lac or at most the button lac to start with to achieve such life-spans and refining it yourself from scratch, that's why i started doing such in the late 70's and improved my processes as i studied the chemistry and making of lac products as was known then.

    Everything from the types of solvents and types of filtering to remove color make for differing results as to the end product used, but once you have that figured out and down, then you can produce the finest shellac that can be had for your personal use. Since there is quite some expense in setting up to do so, i will not go into details, but just know no matter what lacs you buy, or from whom, or what color you may prefer, that any hype you may read is just that, Both methods will give the same attributes as to hardness and gloss if fresh and their other known attributes also. Who you buy it from or prefer makes no real difference accept maybe in it being as fresh as possible. Then why do i process my own? LOL, because mine is superior!!

    HOGWART, over and out







    Sincerely,

    S.Q.P - SAM - CHEMMY.......... Almost 50 years in this art and trade and counting...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheldon pettit View Post
    ....I could write a book on the processing and history of shellac....

    .....Then why do i process my own? LOL, because mine is superior!! .......

    HOGWART, over and out

    Fair enough, Sheldon. You are now officially known as Professor Dumbledore.

    1. You write the book, I will buy an autographed copy.
    2. You process your own shellac, eh? Imagine my surprise. I would have thought you went to India and harvested your own lac, to be honest. More likely, you even have your own proprietary trees, populated by your own proprietary stash of lac colonies.

    I read, with great anticipation, every word of every one of your posts. You inhabit somewhere far, far outside of my planetary plane, which makes it even more interesting.

    You absolutely slay me, so please keep up the good work, Professor.

    Best regards;

    The Proletariat.
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  8. #23
    Thank you guys very much for all of the information and recommendations...I feel much more informed about all of this. I think to make it somewhat simple and ease me into it, so to speak, I'm going to give the Waterlox route a try and see how that works out. Seems like it my be the more straightforward method for me to start out with, i.e., I'll have less (notice I didn't say 'no chance' ) of screwing it up!

    I'll let you know how it turns out, and post a few pics when I get things rolling.

    Again, THANK YOU!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Zahn View Post
    Thank you guys very much for all of the information and recommendations...I feel much more informed about all of this. I think to make it somewhat simple and ease me into it, so to speak, I'm going to give the Waterlox route a try and see how that works out. Seems like it my be the more straightforward method for me to start out with, i.e., I'll have less (notice I didn't say 'no chance' ) of screwing it up!

    I'll let you know how it turns out, and post a few pics when I get things rolling.

    Again, THANK YOU!
    Have fun jason and enjoy yourself, mistakes are what knowledge is born upon.

    SAm.... opsss. professor dumbledorf, at your service
    Sincerely,

    S.Q.P - SAM - CHEMMY.......... Almost 50 years in this art and trade and counting...

  10. #25
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    First my disclaimer, Sheldon and Prashun certainly have more knowledge and experience than me and I'm not giving my input to contradict anything they have said; I'm merely stating what works pretty well for me on the cherry projects I have made, and what is readily available for me at the local home improvement store. I sand to 220, then flood the cherry with clear Danish oil and after 20 minutes wipe off the excess. I do the Danish oil thing twice and then let it cure for 3 days. I then apply 2-4 coats of satin wipe on polyurethane following the directions on the can, sanding lightly between all coats. This is probably not a purists technique, but I do like the way it looks by combing the penetrating oil and poly overcoat.

  11. #26
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    And that's all that really matters Jon, if you like the outcome and the service life of the end product then be my guest
    Sincerely,

    S.Q.P - SAM - CHEMMY.......... Almost 50 years in this art and trade and counting...

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