Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: CLTT vs. dye sub

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Glenelg, MD
    Posts
    12,256
    Blog Entries
    1

    CLTT vs. dye sub

    Ugh... kinda put myself into a crunch on this one. I've been considering getting into the CLTT market for a few years now, but so many other projects have prevented me from adding it to the stable. Are there any advantages to straight dye-sub over CLTT I may not be aware of (maybe color saturation, blacks vs. muddy browns, etc.)? From my research over the years, it appears like CLTT is a better route overall... no inks to dry up/clog, for example; CLTT uses regular color toners, not specialty inks; machines about the same price; yadda yadda.

    Suggestions on newer model numbers and equipment appreciated. Okidata, Konica Minolta, and Xerox (?) are the brands of choice for CLTT... don't need tabloid size at the moment, but if it's a good price, why not. Also, heat presses... what has worked well for you.

    I was hoping to get in on some of the Black Friday deals going on right now, but I'm probably posting this too late for that
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

    Trotec 80W Speedy 300 laser w/everything
    CAMaster Stinger CNC (25" x 36" x 5")
    USCutter 24" LaserPoint Vinyl Cutter
    Jet JWBS-18QT-3 18", 3HP bandsaw
    Robust Beauty 25"x52" wood lathe w/everything
    Jet BD-920W 9"x20" metal lathe
    Delta 18-900L 18" drill press

    Flame Polisher (ooooh, FIRE!)
    Freeware: InkScape, Paint.NET, DoubleCAD XT
    Paidware: Wacom Intuos4 (Large), CorelDRAW X5

  2. #2
    Dan

    I gave up on doing my own dye sub several years ago finding it to be expensive and unreliable for my relatively low volume operation. One of the drawbacks is that you must use a polymer substrate which is very limiting. The other is the very high cost of ink and substrate. Then there's the reject rate which I found to be high.

    I didn't give up on doing dye sub altogether and, when needed, I have MyTransferSource.com make them at a very reasonable price. ($1.99 per sheet)

    I have done CLT for more than 10 years and find it to be easier, provide better color matches and it can be used on nearly any substrate.

    I also do laser sublimation in black only using an old HP 4000 printer and a sublimation cartridge. This is very profitable and nearly flawless. I use this mostly on metal.

    MagicTouch is the preferred supplier of paper for CLT and they are the only one I know of which makes a hard surface transfer paper. I advise checking their site before buying anything. Okidata seems to be the printer of choice these days.

    I think the best heat press on the market is Insta. They will be the most expensive but mine is 12 years old and has been flawless. Buy a swingaway rather than a clamshell.
    Last edited by Mike Null; 11-24-2012 at 6:57 AM.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Glenelg, MD
    Posts
    12,256
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks, Mike... I spent about an hour on the phone with Steve (Sheperd) last night going over options. I've decided upon a mid-range Oki, a swingaway press fro Geo Knight, and the MagicTouch paper. The MT site is somewhat useless from a newbie standpoint, however... lots of options, but not a shred of info as to what the difference is from one paper to the next. My guess is the different papers are designed for different machines, but how hard is it to list the recommended machines with each one? 6, 6.2, 6.3, 6.4 what? I also hear the "salesmen" are just as clueless...
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

    Trotec 80W Speedy 300 laser w/everything
    CAMaster Stinger CNC (25" x 36" x 5")
    USCutter 24" LaserPoint Vinyl Cutter
    Jet JWBS-18QT-3 18", 3HP bandsaw
    Robust Beauty 25"x52" wood lathe w/everything
    Jet BD-920W 9"x20" metal lathe
    Delta 18-900L 18" drill press

    Flame Polisher (ooooh, FIRE!)
    Freeware: InkScape, Paint.NET, DoubleCAD XT
    Paidware: Wacom Intuos4 (Large), CorelDRAW X5

  4. #4
    The different papers are designed for different applications but the same printer. The numeric designations don't seem to be significant but there are salesman there who can describe the differences. Most of my work is with CPM paper is for hard surface transfers. (metal, plastic, engravers plastic, wood, etc.) I'll use whatever number they have on hand. ORD is for transferring the image and the paper to the back of an acrylic piece similar to the Acrylic Idea Factory stuff. It works pretty well.

    I've been using them for over ten years and I bought "their" Panasonic printer which had their drivers loaded. It has been a tank--and weighs about that much--but it's old technology and fairly slow.

    The TTC paper is for textile transfer and there is a lot of competition at a lower price on this paper.

    They have decals which work well and there is the paper called WOW for full color transfers on dark textiles. Very expensive though. They also have photo paper which I bought and have not really found much use for.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  5. #5
    What are you planning on doing? CLTT has versatility on its side but the dye sub offers better color on many items. A lot of the dye sub complaints are fixed with the Ricoh systems and although its not as versatile as CLTT, more and more dye sub products come out every day making it less and less of an issue.

    I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Pros and cons for both systems. My opinion is that dye sub offers the higher quality result but lacks the diversity. CLTT has the diversity, but the quality isn't as nice as dye sub. Cost of running will depend on the life of the printer more than anything else but depending on your work flow, paper could start making a real impact.
    Equipment: IS400, IS6000, VLS 6.60, LS100, HP4550, Ricoh GX e3300n, Hotronix STX20
    Software: Adobe Suite & Gravostyle 5
    Business: Trophy, Awards and Engraving

  6. #6
    Dan

    There is more information on their other site. I think it's more for their European customers. It's just magictouch.com instead of magictouchusa.com. It tells a little more about the paper and also has compatability guides. I haven't done a lot of CLT, but I've been gravitating back toward the Magic Touch paper too. Since I just wanted to get started, I bought a cheap OKI 3400 and found a very nice Hotronics Swinger on Craigslist at a great price.
    Scott Challoner
    30W LaserPro Spirit (Need more power)
    30W Wisely Fiber Galvo

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Glenelg, MD
    Posts
    12,256
    Blog Entries
    1
    Ross, at the moment I'd like to work with acrylics (immediate) and metal (eventually)... seems like with those applications CLTT is (practically) the only way to go.

    Scott, thanks for the non-USA website for MT... I'll check it out and hope for some better info.
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

    Trotec 80W Speedy 300 laser w/everything
    CAMaster Stinger CNC (25" x 36" x 5")
    USCutter 24" LaserPoint Vinyl Cutter
    Jet JWBS-18QT-3 18", 3HP bandsaw
    Robust Beauty 25"x52" wood lathe w/everything
    Jet BD-920W 9"x20" metal lathe
    Delta 18-900L 18" drill press

    Flame Polisher (ooooh, FIRE!)
    Freeware: InkScape, Paint.NET, DoubleCAD XT
    Paidware: Wacom Intuos4 (Large), CorelDRAW X5

  8. #8
    CLTT definitely has its advantages for acrylic at the moment. I would expect in the near future that someone will go ahead and coat acrylic sheet goods for dye sub but obviously that hasn't happened yet. I imagine its because dye sub is typically done at 400 degrees and CLTT is done at 325.
    Equipment: IS400, IS6000, VLS 6.60, LS100, HP4550, Ricoh GX e3300n, Hotronix STX20
    Software: Adobe Suite & Gravostyle 5
    Business: Trophy, Awards and Engraving

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Glenelg, MD
    Posts
    12,256
    Blog Entries
    1
    Have any of you had good success with CLTT on acrylic? "Success" meaning no major movement or bowing of the acrylic itself...
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

    Trotec 80W Speedy 300 laser w/everything
    CAMaster Stinger CNC (25" x 36" x 5")
    USCutter 24" LaserPoint Vinyl Cutter
    Jet JWBS-18QT-3 18", 3HP bandsaw
    Robust Beauty 25"x52" wood lathe w/everything
    Jet BD-920W 9"x20" metal lathe
    Delta 18-900L 18" drill press

    Flame Polisher (ooooh, FIRE!)
    Freeware: InkScape, Paint.NET, DoubleCAD XT
    Paidware: Wacom Intuos4 (Large), CorelDRAW X5

  10. #10
    CLT is not sufficiently opaque to produce a good image on clear acrylic. That's where the ORD paper comes in and you can get a good result with that.

    I haven't had bowing of acrylic as I don't do much but there is some bowing of engravers laminates which can be removed with a heat gun or just holding it flat while it cools.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  11. #11
    I might add, Dan is talking about 1/8" acrylic. Some of the acrylic awards that are thicker certainly would do CLT just fine. It's been my limited experience in trying to heat thin acrylic is that it never works well. 320 is where CLT needs to be and at 320 the plastic is getting malleable, so the texture from any pad is going to transfer into the acrylic, as well as taking it out of the press, it's going to deform, so you'll have to put it between something heavy and flat that's perfectly smooth to get it to cool is a state that's flat and without any texture.

    Maybe someone else has figured it out, but I've tried heating thin acrylic a number of times for various projects and I've never even come close to having acceptable results. I could be missing something, but I've spent quite a bit of time over the years trying to do it and I've failed every time.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Glenelg, MD
    Posts
    12,256
    Blog Entries
    1
    To be even more specific... a (potential) current project involves top-surface imaging on white acrylic. Steve ran a test or two for me earlier where he had less than acceptable results, so I wanted to see if anyone has had success.
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

    Trotec 80W Speedy 300 laser w/everything
    CAMaster Stinger CNC (25" x 36" x 5")
    USCutter 24" LaserPoint Vinyl Cutter
    Jet JWBS-18QT-3 18", 3HP bandsaw
    Robust Beauty 25"x52" wood lathe w/everything
    Jet BD-920W 9"x20" metal lathe
    Delta 18-900L 18" drill press

    Flame Polisher (ooooh, FIRE!)
    Freeware: InkScape, Paint.NET, DoubleCAD XT
    Paidware: Wacom Intuos4 (Large), CorelDRAW X5

  13. #13
    If the job offers the option of using white surface engraver's plastic you can get a good result.

    Here is a shield I cut on the laser then used clt for the image (from a not too good bitmap).

    You can also use abs as shown with the name tag.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Mike Null; 11-26-2012 at 7:13 AM.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    1,843
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    If the job offers the option of using white surface engraver's plastic you can get a good result...
    Mike, What grade/type of plastic are you using for that work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Hintz View Post
    Have any of you had good success with CLTT on acrylic? "Success" meaning no major movement or bowing of the acrylic itself...
    I attended a JDS seminar a few weeks back and got a hint that has been worth it's weight in.. transfer paper. It's meant for Sublimation but I've found it great for CLTT - use Repositionable Adhesive Spray on most objects - buy it at Hobby Lobby for just a couple $ bucks. The press can create a suction vacuum and when the lid lifts, the image may lift with the suction - only needs to lift a few hairs, but when it lays back down it can mess up the image. The Repositionable Adhesive Spray prevents this.
    Last edited by Tim Bateson; 11-26-2012 at 1:15 PM.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
    Epilog Fusion M2 50/30 Co2/Fiber - 2015
    Epilog Mini 24 – 35watt - 2006 (Original Tube)
    Ricoh SG3110DN
    - Liberty Laser LLC

  15. #15
    Dan, Ricoh has a small format Dye Sub Printer under $500, Oki seems a bit high on their laser printers
    so you may check around. It might be wise to get the paper and go to a copy place before you by
    a printer to get it done. I am impressed with the ORD on acrylic, granted the quality isn't quite what
    an ink jet printer is but it is sellable.

    Does it have to be acrylici? I use a .125 hardboard for dye sub (Johnson Plastics and Conde) I love the stuff,
    so many aplications as it can be cut to sizes and shapes easily with a laser. Is this something you could print
    vinyl and either heat press or use the adhesive variety?

    One thing on the press, I have a swing award Geo Knight and find it to be a very usable press. Don't go with
    a cheap press as heating may not be consistant or it may have a long recovery time.

    The one thing I wish I got was the press that had a release on it so that it lifts the platten at the end of the
    dwell, this is a great option so consider it.
    Martin Boekers

    1 - Epilog Radius 25watt laser 1998
    1 - Epilog Legend EXT36 75watt laser 2005
    1 - Epilog Legend EXT36 75watt laser 2007
    1 - Epilog Fusion M2 32 120watt laser with camera 2015
    2 - Geo Knight K20S 16x20 Heat Press
    Geo Knight K Mug Press,
    Ricoh GX-7000 Dye Sub Printer
    Zerox Phaser 6360 Laser Printer
    numerous other tools and implements
    of distruction/distraction!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •