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Thread: FWW's "Every Handplane Needs a Tuneup" - a video response

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Cruea View Post
    I'm actually more worried about running the screwdriver through my hand than the blade of the plane mauling my hand, to be honest.
    No kidding! I have jabbed myself in the hand on more than one occasion tightening down the cap iron. Haven't pierced the hand with the screwdriver, but even just a hard jab to the knuckle or palm is not a lot of fun.

  2. #47
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    That's why I really like having one of these
    " Be willing to make mistakes in your basements, garages, apartments and palaces. I have made many. Your first attempts may be poor. They will not be futile. " - M.S. Bickford, Mouldings In Practice

  3. #48

    I'd re-think this carefully...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Cruea View Post
    Wow, I am so glad I'm not the only one that had an adverse reaction to that article/video.

    To me, the first dead giveaway that I shouldn't be reading was when it was stated a new plane needed tuning up. Uh, sorry, but I'm not going to be dropping $425 on a Lie-Nielsen jointer that's ground flat and square, or to within .0015" of flat just to run it over sandpaper clamped to my bench. Nor do I really think a Lie-Nielsen (or Lee Valley) for that matter has burrs running rampant.

    That said. . .sure, I'd tune up a new Stanley, or maybe even an old Stanley. Use a wood top? Nah, I'll take the 24" piece of floated glass I have, thanks.
    I'm not sure how spending $425.00 make a product immune from deficiencies, in fact I'm certain that this is not the case. Has anyone here spent much more money than this on equipment only to find that manufacturing tolerances have not been held? There are threads all over the place that would indicate yes. Are there burrs running rampant on an LV plane? I don't know. What I do know is a bit about manufacturing and I know that CNC machined items come off the machine with burrs. In many cases burrs are removed manually. Manually, well there's room for error now.

    I personally have returned two planes to a high end manufacturer and my friend has returned one to the same manufacturer - why? Because a casting was cracked, sides of a shooting plane were ground out of square in excess of 2 degrees and the bottom of a > $425 plane was anything but flat. (The manufacturer was beyond reproach in their response to our concerns in each instance!) Mistakes happen in production - period. If spending $425 makes you think that you're buying perfection then you certainly can save money on buying machinist quality measuring tools but it doesn't mean that the article holds the stated production tolerances.

    We can all read these threads and think that we've "learned" something but really we all need to go back to our shops and put the time in to actually do what we are speaking of. Of course in many cases this means spending money as well as time. An opinion is just that, an opinion, but it really isn't that useful if it is not backed by hard earned knowledge.

    I have no doubt that many woodworkers are very happy with their planes, chisels etc. right out of the box. I am sure that they get right down to doing some beautiful woodworking once the package arrives at their door and that's great. I personally have come to the place where out of the box is not the finish line, close but not quite there. To date I feel that my efforts out of the box have been worth the extra time and money spent.
    Last edited by Chris Fournier; 11-26-2012 at 10:14 AM.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Cruea View Post
    I hold the chip breaker/blade assembly while I tighten/loosen. It's not particularly that hard to feel when the chip breaker starts to slip (or if it does slip). But I also use a foot-long screwdriver to tighten the thing down so that I can make sure the chip breaker is married to the tip of the blade to minimize chatter.

    I'm actually more worried about running the screwdriver through my hand than the blade of the plane mauling my hand, to be honest.
    I would be more concerned about using a screwdriver with the appropriate blade size and profile than about it's length. A foot long screwdriver will deliver no more torque than a 3" long screwdriver!

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    I'm not sure how spending $425.00 make a product immune from deficiencies, in fact I'm certain that this is not the case. Has anyone here spent much more money than this on equipment only to find that manufacturing tolerances have not been held? There are threads all over the place that would indicate yes. Are there burrs running rampant on an LV plane? I don't know. What I do know is a bit about manufacturing and I know that CNC machined items come off the machine with burrs. In many cases burrs are removed manually. Manually, well there's room for error now.

    I personally have returned two planes to a high end manufacturer and my friend has returned one to the same manufacturer - why? Because a casting was cracked, sides of a shooting plane were ground out of square in excess of 2 degrees and the bottom of a > $425 plane was anything but flat. (The manufacturer was beyond reproach in their response to our concerns in each instance!) Mistakes happen in production - period. If spending $425 makes you think that you're buying perfection then you certainly can save money on buying machinist quality measuring tools but it doesn't mean that the article holds the stated production tolerances.

    We can all read these threads and think that we've "learned" something but really we all need to go back to our shops and put the time in to actually do what we are speaking of. Of course in many cases this means spending money as well as time. An opinion is just that, an opinion, but it really isn't that useful if it is not backed by hard earned knowledge.

    I have no doubt that many woodworkers are very happy with their planes, chisels etc. right out of the box. I am sure that they get right down to doing some beautiful woodworking once the package arrives at their door and that's great. I personally have come to the place where out of the box is not the finish line, close but not quite there. To date I feel that my efforts out of the box have been worth the extra time and money spent.
    I think the point is that you would never do this to a LV or LN plane out of the box...ever. You would return the plane and get a proper one. LV and LN planes come absolutely ready to go out of the box (save a little honing you should do on the LN irons, but the LV irons come sharp), and if they're not you should NOT tune it up, file things, etc. You should send it back.

  6. #51
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    FWIW, I haven't seen the video yet, and I've only glanced at the article, and while looking at the pictures, I immediately question how flat Tommy's methods would actually get a plane sole (although I also question whether you actually need machinist tolerance flat on a most planes) I do notice that the blurb under the photo in the first picture of the "flatten the sole" picture says:

    Check it first. If you see light under your straightedge, you've got a major problem. On a flea-marker find, it's worth an hour or two of sanding to level a warped sole, but a new plane should be sent back.
    Color emphasis is mine, bold from the article text. I don't know if the video echoes this statement or not, but it seems like the article pretty much says the exact same thing we've been saying - on a newly manufactured plane, you shouldn't have to do this, and the manufacturer should make it right.

    Interestingly enough, in the same issue of FWW, they talk about Lee Valley's 35 anniversary - they have a video online of that as well. One of the photos in the magazine accompanying that article shows a machinist at the LV/Veritas plant using a dial indicator to check the flatness of a jointer plane. Which I think speaks to the fact that these planes don't need that kind of work - and I doubt the majority of home woodworkers have the equipment to check for flat to the same degree that Lee Valley does.

    The accompanying video to the Lee Valley article shows their industrial lapping machine, and Asa says

    The machine works perfectly, so please do not lap these blades on sandpaper yourself. You might ruin them!
    I think ruin is a strong word, but I do appreciate how the new LV blades don't require any work.

    It seems like FWW may not have been overly clear, and there's some questionable advice in the article but I don't think they were straight out recommending that we start attacking to planes with coarse methods . . .
    Last edited by Jessica Pierce-LaRose; 11-26-2012 at 11:40 AM.
    " Be willing to make mistakes in your basements, garages, apartments and palaces. I have made many. Your first attempts may be poor. They will not be futile. " - M.S. Bickford, Mouldings In Practice

  7. #52
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    Beginning to watch the video, I wish there was a mention of making sure you have a precision straight edge. If you see light between the sole of a plane and the edge and you don't know the difference between a precision straight edge and a hardware store ruler, I can tell you where the problem may very well lie if you're checking a nice new plane. I don't think this is mentioned in the article either.

    Also beginning to watch the video, more of complaints make sense - the caveats in the article certainly aren't present in the video, and being that the video is free and folks who see that may not have access to the article, I can see how this presentation could go bad for someone.

    Still better than some of the router and table saw jigs I've seen in that magazine, though.
    " Be willing to make mistakes in your basements, garages, apartments and palaces. I have made many. Your first attempts may be poor. They will not be futile. " - M.S. Bickford, Mouldings In Practice

  8. #53
    Okay, that's a fine point John but to know that your out of the box plane is flat, square etc. you still really need to be able to evaluate that yourself don't you? By the time you've measured it you might as well tune it up. Things may have changed but I don't believe that manufacturers grind the plane bodies with the frogs in situ and the iron tightened down - this is something that a woodworker can improve in his shop with some care - a plane that is flat while tensioned ready for use. (We can discuss whether a plane sole really needs to be flat everywhere to work well but that would muddy these waters.)

    And if you don't think that the effort is worth it you don't have to do it, it's just that I've seen plenty of SMCers discussing 0.001" tolerances on their shop built cross cut sleds and router tables and very few people seem to think that this pursuit is out of the ordinary (let alone measurable and achievable) so why not hold a fine handplane to the same standard as a shop built cross cut sled or router table?

    My final stance is that your tools should not hold you back from doing your best work. In the pursuit of good work some folks take more time setting up their tools - it may just be a mindset thing but in my opinion attention to all of the details along the way encourages a better outcome.
    Last edited by Chris Fournier; 11-26-2012 at 12:12 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    Okay, that's a fine point John but to know that your out of the box plane is flat, square etc. you still really need to be able to evaluate that yourself don't you? By the time you've measured it you might as well tune it up. Things may have changed but I don't believe that manufacturers grind the plane bodies with the frogs in situ and the iron tightened down - this is something that a woodworker can improve in his shop with some care - a plane that is flat while tensioned ready for use. (We can discuss whether a plane sole really needs to be flat everywhere to work well but that would muddy these waters.)

    And if you don't think that the effort is worth it you don't have to do it, it's just that I've seen plenty of SMCers discussing 0.001" tolerances on their shop built cross cut sleds and router tables and very few people seem to think that this pursuit is out of the ordinary (let alone measurable and achievable) so why not hold a fine handplane to the same standard as a shop built cross cut sled or router table?
    For me it seems how the plane does its job is a better evaluation than all the measurements one can take on the plane body.

    If it is a new plane that cost me a lot of bucks, there should be no reason to mess with it. If the maker isn't going to stand behind the purchase, then maybe they are not worthy of my investment.

    There is also a point of my being a touch finicky. On my two LN planes that did get a little work, they came with smooth mouth adjustments. My desire was for "finer than the finest silk" adjustments.

    On chip breakers, mine are always examined for fit before pushing them across a stone.

    The most egregious act in the video, as mentioned by someone else was using the lever cap to loosen and tighten the screw on the chip breaker. I have worn out too many screwdrivers to do anything but cringe when watching someone use an expensive to replace item to do the job of an inexpensive tool.

    My suggestion for anyone who wants to learn about tuning up planes is to start with the cheapest yard sale finds on which one can cut their teeth. The next step in the process would be to find everything written available to see what others have done. A lot of the processes will be the same. Discard any of the outlier techniques, like tightening screws with the lever cap, that are unique to a single source. If along the way one wants to try something not in the "common knowledge" bank, it may be enlightening without being costly.

    In my younger days, a few of us just loved to take things apart. With new items we called it a warrantee voiding party with computers and other electronics we bought and just wanted to look inside.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    So I finally decided to open this thread and see what's up. My first reaction reading the title, "Every Handplane Needs a Tuneup", was "Uh, no it doesn't." They must be running out of material, or something. I do hope people watching that video don't do any of that past taking it out of the bag and removing the oil from the sole.

    Could be that they ran out of materials.

    In fact, there are a lot of magazine back issues available on Google, and if you do take your time read them, you'll find lots of articles repeating ...

    As for this plane tuneup thing, I just feel that people are over emphasizing it, regardless of the condition, usage, etc. for a particular plane. For example, I would take a
    #5 (in a hand tool shop) to be used right after scrub, thus don't think it has to be of high precision, could care less if it's flat, straight, or not. But I kept seeing people
    take a #5, spend don't know how much time try to flat the bottom... Seriously, I might try to flat my $20 #4, but not (or never) a LV or LN one, I'd just contact the
    maker to get it right.

  11. #56
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    OK guys..... I just can't hold this back any longer....... Where I come from we don't keep the chips, we keep the part we are working on.
    Not to offend anyone here, but to even consider that your screws holding the frog are affecting the process of removing material from the wood you are
    working, is not a productive road to go down. Competitive Chip making well OK, But woodworking, come on man, come on.
    Poor Tommy, I bet he is regretting this one, Magazine calls "We need an article on tuning up handplanes by tomorrow night" He's really busy, thinks a little bit "hmmmm, I bet I can get a sponsor some good exposure here" And the rest is history.... Good Idea , poor execution. Yes he is wrong about tuning a plane that does not need tuning annnd he goes about it differently than I would but anyway..... Most of us are afflicted with Tool Worship to the point it ruins our woodworking....

    And since I am typing (a once a year phenomenon) I want to point out How really fortunate we are to have George Wilson Post here, this guy is a true one in a million
    Craftsman and much more. It is a shame that someone has not made it worth his while to write a book on How a Craftsman thinks is almost criminal, Also with all the DVD stuff available a few hour Video with a true master can't be arranged? We are blessed that a guy with George's knowledge wants to freely share it is a gift every time we log on here. This is my opinion. -matt

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCormick View Post
    ...I want to point out How really fortunate we are to have George Wilson Post here, this guy is a true one in a million
    Craftsman and much more. ... We are blessed that a guy with George's knowledge wants to freely share it is a gift every time we log on here. This is my opinion. -matt
    +1. George has certainly blessed me!!!!

  13. #58
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    If George's posts have not lead to awe and inspiration it may be time to call the undertaker.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #59
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    Those are very kind words,guys. There are those that get jealous,when all I really want to do is teach the right way to do work and design things. I can tell someone something in a minute that took me 10 years to find out!!

    There are things I have learned from others here,too.

    I was actually taught to use the lever cap as the screwdriver!! Many shop teachers will teach things like that because they do not know better themselves.
    Last edited by george wilson; 11-26-2012 at 4:35 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Those are very kind words,guys. There are those that get jealous,when all I really want to do is teach the right way to do work and design things. I can tell someone something in a minute that took me 10 years to find out!!

    I was actually taught to use the lever cap as the screwdriver!! Many shop teachers will teach things like that because they do not know better themselves.
    That explains why you see so many lever caps with busted-up front edges. I never could figure out how people broke them; now it makes sense.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

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