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Thread: Comparing thoughts on SawStop

  1. #1
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    Arrow Comparing thoughts on SawStop

    I post this thread as an extension of some thoughts that came up on "The Next Unisaw" thread. Didn't want to hijack that thread, but did want to allow for a discussion of some interesting thoughts on Sawstop.

    Dev, if you've found me here,

    First, I enjoyed your disussion of vintage machines. There are some gems from the past. As Bart mentioned on the previous thread they were built for producion work, and as such they are heavy duty and seem to last forever. They also , as you mentioned, allow for some types of work (moulding etc.)that can't or shouldn't be done on the typical cabinet saw. The old boys are a different breed. I remember an old Oliver from a night class I took at a Tech school. There was a foot brake to stop the blade from spinning after you turned the saw off. Unfortunately it was broken. If you know your safety, you don't leave the saw until the blade has stopped as someone else could come along not realizing the balde was still spinning and get hurt. Not much of an issue on my Jet or a Unisaw as the spin down is maybe 30 seconds? When you'd turn this Oliver off it was several minutes before that buzzard stopped. An inconvenience to be sure, but that's quality. I can only imagine the kind of bearings that thing must've had. I'd put that one in my shop anyday (but I'd fix the footbrake)

    OK, the Sawstop. Always a bone of contention. I've followed the story from the beginning as I thought it was a great idea and long overdue. It was an important feature to me for a couple of reasons: 1) I was a hobbiest woodworker, but a dentist by trade. Kind of needed to keep my fingers attached. So when the issues of safe practices come up, believe me I was/am meticulous! 2) My brother pulled a radial arm saw across his index finger. The doctors thought they'd need to amputate (complete the amputation, I should say) but my Brother asked them to please try anything. The finger was in fact saved, but is fused at the middle knucle so he can't bend it. Certainly could've been worse but ask him what it would be worth to regain the normal use of his finger and the answer will be many times the cost of several sawstop saws, blades and brakes.

    I wish that Delta, Jet, Powermatic et. al. would have adopted the technology when it was presented. My guess is that they may now be wishing the same thing. I'm inclined to repond to a number of points made about the Sawstop. No personal offense intended, believe me I've read numerous threads and seen the same points time and time again. This is just the first time I have responed as it was a moot point to me until the technolgy actually hit the market.

    "I would caution anyone about a false sense of security from these so called safty devices. Learn to use the saw correctly by using correct techniques and you will be O.K. Take a class if you have to but learn the correct techniques!"

    A ten inch blade spinning with the tips near the speed of sound scares the xxxxxxxout of me. Having a brake mechanism would not change that one ioda. I don't think anyone wants to test drive the brake. I don't personally think this idea that people will get careless because there is a safety brake present holds water. More importantly, we do know that a false sense of security comes with repetitious use, so that danger is already present and is an argument for not against a safety device.

    I mentioned that I am meticulous about safety. I know and apply good techniques as you suggest, and most certainly this reduces my risk substantially. But this argument suggests that as long as I do just that I cannot get hurt. We'd have to read specific reports, so I say this without scientific certainty, but it seems possible that accidents have occured despite safe practices. Once again it is even more important to flip the argument over. DO people use safe techniques? I go to the hardwood shop and often need a sheet cut in half to transport it. One guy manhandles the sheet onto a unisaw that is already running has no safety guard anywhere near it. The sheet hits the blade before it does the fence and gets pushed thru with remarkable speed. As near as I can tell, he's not paying much attention, he is cetainly not watching the board /fence interface as one should. He pushes the sheet all the way thru with hands on both sides of the cut and runs them beyond the blade. He's also wearing gloves so as not to get a splinter! This guy does this for a job. Anecdotal evidence? yes. But do I need to be scientific here. I've seen this type of practice too many times in too many places to delude myself into thinking it is uncommon. Now we could argue that these folks can mutilate themselves if they so choose. But it does not lend credibility to the "well just don't put your hand in the blade" argument. (I have heard this statement used in a serious manner several times, it does not apply here as the use of safe techniques is suggested thoughtfully and correctly) Still, from a realistic and economic standpoint, safe practices are not universally applied and the economic burden that results is some level of magnitude beyond the cost of the brake system. Broken blades catridges and all.

    "And according to the owner of northfield machinery in MN who still makes the older heavy iron, (www.northfieldwoodworking.com), this device is actually itself a safety hazard. On larger, carbide tipped blades, the teeth have a habbit of comming off with extreme kinetic energry. In english, that is schrapnel! I for one do not wish to have a doctor pulling out forrest blade schrapnel from every part of the front side of my body when this thing kicks in by accident. Secondly, its a one shot device. An aluminium alloy boot is jammed into the blade path at the same time that the entire yoke assembly is dumped into the bowls of the saw cabinet to get the blade out of path in milli-seconds. You will now need to get both a new shoe and a new blade as most blades of any quality will be destroyed by this violence."

    Well I'm from MN, but I still can't take the word of a machinery owner that this device creates shrapnel. Is there a study that shows or even suggests this? Any evidence of any kind? I would definitely be want to be aware of this and so would appreciate any information. Sawstop shot this thing off repeatedly in development and subsequent testing. Heck, they do it at shows with a crowd gathered around. Would they do that if they tought it sprayed shrapnel? They have the most to lose should there be an injury caused by the action of this device.

    Yes your blade and cartridge are shot. A very nice blade, $120, cartidge, $60. $180. So to employ that as an argument against this device begs the question: what is a finger worth to you? $180? If this thing goes off and I still have ten fingers, I'll use all ten to count out the bills to buy a blade, and a cartridge. Steve Gass will get a Holiday card every year for the rest of my life, with my ten fingerprints on it. You could lose $180 on a miss fire. I'll take it. They have worked hard on preventing misfires, and to the best of my knowledge there has been one incident in the field (piece of metal tape on underside of a board establihed an electrical path from blade to table, which drew current and quite properly released the brake. No shrapnel reported.)

    "how can one person push these features as a required safety standard but also hold everyone culpable in the event that they dont pay him royalties for violating his patent? If this wasn't about greed, then he should do what mercedes did with the crumple zone patent... give it away to the world for free. But the facts are the facts. The attempt to put this requirement into the standards is a feeble way of blackmailing companies into having to pay his royalties. Furthermore, every major manufacturer in this country has already evaluated his invention and effectively turned it down.

    1) the system was offered to manufacturer's in exchange for a royalty. They chose not to implement the system and not to pay a royalty. Is there a reason they should get to refuse to pay royaties, but then violate his patent. I don't think even the Manufacturers believe that.
    2) Who ever said it wasn't about greed. It is about greed and so is every other object ever invented. I think the vast majority of things are invented in the hope that they will sell and generate a profit. That's capitalism: if you can invent and make something that people will buy, you get money. Lot's of good inventions came out of that sytem.

    Your analogy with Mercedes may not be the best comparison. They did release a patent on a safety feature, but I doubt that it was less greedy. More likely the PR for releasing it was worth more than they figured to lose by letting the competition have it. They did mention it in a series of commercials after all. If they had no greed they wouldn't have needed to profit from the PR. More significant is that Mercedes-Benz is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Steve Gass is a single individual. He perceived a need, pursued a solution, found one and deserves the results. Remember the jury is still out. He may make millions or go bankcrupt.
    Had you invented this device, would you have given it away?

    As to every manufacturer turning it down, I did not hear of one that said it did not work. I heard several say that they felt the cost of implementing it would be prohibitive. Sounds greedy. They actually feared being sued by someone who was injured on one of their other machines that didn't have the device.

    I for one am glad that someboby found a way to make a saw with the brake (apparently the cost wasn't prohibitive so much as a risk that several large corporations didn't want to take, but one greedy individual did).

    As to forcing the technology via governmental routes....I'm never for that. I'd say the cards are dealt, play the hand. They turned it down, he ran an end around. The capitalistic system not only inspires inventions , it makes very objective decisions. The market will decide. (and you may have already read my prediction: Sawstop does well, gains market share, one or more of the aforementioned mfgrs bids to buy them out)

    I can only say two things on the regulations issue. It was offered first. I think there denial was a shock (it was to me). There may be some vengenge involved. I think it would take a better man than me not to react the same way.

    If regulating this maddens you, let's not forget that the current safety guards are mandated. So if you fight one, fight the other and I will join you.

    In the end, despite my novel length post. We are really more in agreement than not. We may disagree as to the relative merits of the sawstop safety feature. You won't buy one and I will. But you won't keep me from buying one, and I won't force you to buy one. And that's as it should be.

    I welcome your reply/response or anything else. I hope we get some other opinions in here as well.

    All the best,
    Ken
    Last edited by Ken Salisbury; 04-25-2005 at 6:46 AM. Reason: removed profanity
    Ken Waag

  2. #2
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    Ken,

    I am reading it in chapters and have completed this evenings session...woow!
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  3. #3
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    Well said, Ken.

    Greg

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Singer
    Ken,

    I am reading it in chapters and have completed this evenings session...woow!
    Yea, Sorry about that, but like I said I've been silent for along time. If you'd like I'll let you know when the audio version comes out
    Ken Waag

  5. #5
    I'm going to wait for the Cliff's Notes version myself.
    Jeff

  6. #6

    Cool

    2) Who ever said it wasn't about greed. It is about greed and so is every other object ever invented. I think the vast majority of things are invented in the hope that they will sell and generate a profit. That's capitalism: if you can invent and make something that people will buy, you get money. Lot's of good inventions came out of that sytem.

    Ken.
    Greed don't inspire people to invent.
    Imagination and challenge is the food for thought.
    And nothing is wrong if the inventor and the dreamer makes few millions.
    When we spend few billions annually for hospital bills.
    To me, Steve is a great asset to our society and we must support him.
    I think he should receive the Nobel price for coming up with the Saw Stop.
    YCF dino

  7. #7
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    I like the cliff notes form best as well. And I can only quote an ex senator from the state of wyoming as he is terse and I am not. Allan Simpson... "I have never heard such dribble in my life. That is pure nonsense".

    Saws like the the northfield #4 have been made almost unchanged for 70 years. Why? Because they work! Why are people like you and others going to ram it down our throats to change designs that have worked without issue for 70 years! That is nonsense and you know it. Woodworking involves rotating cutting blades... that is how it works.

    Frank Klausz said once... "the saw doesnt know the difference between flesh and wood. So keep your hands out of the area painted red".

    And where are you going to stop? Joe Oliver bought the rights to the saftey head around the turn of the century from a german company. There was a time when jointers used square heads and the gaps between the lips and the head were such that many folks were sticking their fingers in there and cutting them off. This new head kept this from happening but also improved the performance of the jointer. Nonetheless, the jointer is still a dangerous machine and has its share of injury.

    According to the medical folks, the most dangerous saw out there is the radial arm saw esp. when its used for ripping operations. Here the saw actually sucks the wood into the blade and your fingers with it. Now exactly how and what do you propose to do about putting this rube goldberg device on a RAS? Oh, my RAS isnt pregnent with twins, that is the new saw stop safety feature that was mandated upon us by uncle sam.

    And what about shapers. You should see some of the meat cutters that I use all the time! It makes a panel raising router bit look like a dremel accessory. My shaper has an exensive sliding table on the left side which allows it to more or less function as both a tenoner and a multi router. The 4 knife terminus head uses a 40 mm spindle which is actually 1.6 inches in diameter. I also use a 4 knife, double angle, 40 mm Wynig moulder head for corregated stock knife cutters. These are a real joy in that there is NO safety feature built in. At least some of the newer router bits are called safety heads which limit the amount of meat they can remove in one pass. Often when useing the sliding table, there is no cover on the cutter at all. Are you going to mandate that we who use these german machines also be forced into installing this contraption in our shapers. I guess if my hot dog had to much saur krout and the winnie rolled out onto the table and contacted your saw stop, at least I would not have to go out and get me another winnie for lunch.

    And how about chop saws? Has anyone ever lost a finger in one of these? These home depot queens that cost half of what your whole saw stop itself costs. Mandate the saw stop on these and we all loose as there is no way they can sell these with the saw stop attached and not loose money. To make an exception would be dripping hippracracy.

    I remember one time when a drunk guy was working on a framing crew and was ripping stock lengthwise with a circular saw right down his pants leg. He managed to cut off his thumb and no one could find it. So the doctors were not able to do anything. Later that day when the site was cleaned up, the thumb fell out of the guard on the circular saw. Are you going to mandate that the saw stop be added to these as well?

    Oh, and by the way, no one has ever lost a digit in a bandsaw right? Well that is sorta an expensive machine, lets figure out how to shoe horn 10 pounds of horse crap into a 5 pound bag and install a saw stop into these. Never mind how many viewers of this site oggle about how low grizzly can go on the prices of their wares. How would you guys like to have an additional $200 dollars in parts and royalties added to the price of your 8 inch jointer or bandsaw with no additional functionality added?

    No. The only machine in the whole shop affected by this rube goldberg is the table saw for some odd reason. It is not the most dangerous machine nor is it the only machine. But it was the one chosen for this experiment. In Europe, mitre gage slots on shapers are not allowed because they are dangerous. Auxillary sliding tables have made up the difference and actually improved the performance significantly. On heavy duty jointers, the only guard allowed in many german speaking countries is the suva guard by suvamatic. Boy is that a nice guard! It is truely sweeeeeet. But in the US, that guard is an option and it costs around $1000 dollars to buy it so you dont often see it. Of all the strange european rules I have seen or heard about, not one talks about the saw stop or adopting the saw stop.

    In the last ten or so years, I have seen the woodworking machine industry go down the tanks. There were once the big three around 1997. These were general, powermatic and delta. Northfield was never a major player in this consumer market as most hobbyists do not wish to drop $12,000 or more on a new table saw. Jet has evolved from a twiawanese me-to company into a real player and threat for this market. This was truely evident when they went from the blue paint job to the white paint job. But the consumer/hobbyist market is one of the tightest I have ever seen. They watch every screw and every decal! Last month, they held the auction in Tupelo for all the nifty machine tools used to build delta unisaws and what not. I have seen the quality of porter cable go down as well. What black and decker (Dewalt) have in mind for delta is anyone's guess. But I think the trend in cost engineering will continue and its doubtful that the saw stop will come onboard. It might by virtue of heavy handed big brother government tactics and your buddy will become rich. But in 1924 some time, JD Wallace introduced a retracting guard for jointers. This guard was like the third eye lid on some meat eating animals. It was attached to the outfeed table and covered the cutter head. As you jointed a board, the action of the board pushed the guard forward and down under the lip of the outfeed table. The insurance companies and schools yelled with joy about this saftey feature and wallace used it as selling tactic. Today, I am currently restoring one of these jointers and have talked to a few folks about it. The guard is missing on my jointer. Just a metal rod and a spring were left over. The same story ressonates with others as we tried to figure out what this rod and spring did! It was only after reading some very old dirty paper on the wallace that I figured out what this was. Like so many so called safety innovations, they get culled from the machine and thrown in the manure heap. Items that work are always there. Items that do not work and are a pain in the posterior are always on the missing parts list. So it will be with the saw stop. After the first time this thing fires, the customer will take a deep breath, then get xxxxxxxx about having to pay the replacement costs for the blade and the shoe/cawl and will replace the blade and disable the saw stop.

    Sorry about this diatribe. It is rather long, of no significance and a bit off topic. Afterall, the actual saw stop does not cut, shape or sand lumber products. A real carbide tipped woodworker II on the other hand does.
    Last edited by Ken Salisbury; 04-24-2005 at 7:50 AM. Reason: removed profanity

  8. #8
    I'm just picking this discussion up with this thread so I don't know the history, however...

    I don't get it Dev? You seem to be arguing that the table saw should not be changed to be made more safe? What possible reason could you have for that sort of thinking?

    Innovation is scary to a lot of people, and it appears to be scary to you as well. That's fine, no one is forcing you to use this new technology. Stick with your 70 year old technology if you choose, as you said it works just fine. I for one am all for new an innovative technology.

  9. #9
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    1). My argument is that there are more dangerous machines than the table saw. If your going to require this, then do it on *ALL* machines that have a history of finger removal. Dont just pick on one type of machine because you happen to have a patent on it.

    2). The business case for woodworking machines right now is dismal. Should a redesign be mandated, it will affect all of us. There will be no choice as there will be only enough capital and resources to pursue one solution. Not Two. It will be enough of a strain to push what is left of the big three (general, powermatic and delta) over the edge. There were at one time over 300 companies in the US alone making woodworking machines. Where are they today? And if the mandate also forces professional companies to adopt this technology, it can also spell the end of northfield who is also struggling to hold on and redefine what it means to survive.

    3). You talk about choice. Well if the US forces this mandate on US sold table saws, then what happens to companies like SCMI, Panhans, Martin, Hoffman, etc.? These companies are driven more my EC rules and regulations than by what is going on in the north american market. Today, some of the best shaper tooling is only available in 30 mm and 40 mm spindle sizes. What happened to 1.25 inches? Well kiddies, its going wayside because the market is just disappearing. I have tried to get a 1.25 inch spindle for my shaper and it is not easy. They think of this as some custom made monster in north america. The market presence is very light and any major changes such as mandating saw stops could push them entirely out of the market leaving us as stranded travelers.

    4). You can not change reality. Every video and magazine on the subject begins by saying... "Woodworking is inherently dangerous and these concepts are done by professionals with many years of experience. The magazine does not accept any responsibility for their work and you should observe all safety practices and use all safety guards provided with your machine. You should also read your manual carefully and understand it." And then old Norm chims in by saying that his glasses are safety glasses and that these are the most important safety device you can use.

    Well, we know all this. At least if you have been cutting lumber since the mid seventies like I have, I hope you would have learned a thing or two about using woodworking machines. What I like about guards is that they assist in keeping your meat out of the path of the blade. That is a preventative measure. Saw stops are not preventative. They dont bar you from sticking your fingers where they dont belong. Rather, they freely allow you to stick your finger right into the blade and then violently explode and cause the entire blade to just disappear. Now you have lost a blade, a cawl and your set up. And if you dont have the spare parts on hand, you have also terminated your work progress until you can order up some replacement parts such as blades and cawls. For me, I use 12, 14 and 16 inch blades with 1.25 inch arbor holes. That is a 7 to 14 day lead time special order from the east coast. Congrats! I have just lost 1 to 2 manweeks of labor if I dont have spare blades to cover me on this.

    5). Years ago, an instructor told us that the odds of using your ejection seat is 1 in 8. For every 8 pilots who fly planes with ejection seats, one of you will have the golden opportunity to test it out for real! I always felt that was a bit high but it made me realize that operating some machines just has a certain level of danger that cannot be changed or legislated away. It is an aspect of life and it is what it is. Woodworking machines have spinning cutters that remove wood. Its always been that way. One way to isolate the user is to make these machines fully CNC in function like the CNC routers and CNC mortisers. That seems to be the direction that industrial solutions are going. In fact, they now use the term traditional woodworking machines and modern wood processing machines. I think I got this from the english company wadkin. I can virtually eliminate the need for a table saw and a jointer with a straight line rip saw and a moulder both of which can have CNC control. So once again, if the forced changes for safety require a redesign of the table saw and jointer, then why not just forget about them at all. The market is small and shrinking and tight ass in nature. Not enough profit to be made. Stop production, shut down the plant, lay off the workers and focus on CNC routers, CNC straight line rip saws, CNC moulders and CNC mortisers.

    Lastly, ask the makers what they think? But forget about asking Delta or Powermatic or Jet. These are marketing fronts now for foreign made machines. General is making too much money from the general international line to care about the domestic arm. Its only a matter of time before they cease domestic operations as well. More focused on making power transmission towers for quebec hydro than woodworking machines. Northfield is doing more and more custom machine work for industry than building woodworking machines as well. Folks, these companies are trying to survive right now by redefining their mission statements. About the only organization that will pay attention here is SCMI and that is because they make a ton of money by selling SCMI consorcium machines in the USA. Martin may listen. Hoffman is no longer making table saws so that is a wild card. Panhans will probably just pull out and who knows what Felder will do.

    I am just glad to have found what I have at the time I was able to find it. I make my own parts and rebuild my own machines. In fact, I have even considered building my own jointer from scratch. So let these guys piddle with the saw stop. I will design and build my own table saw from the ground up including foundary pattens and machine shop work if that is what it takes for me *NOT* to be forced into using this contraption! And I doubt that I am alone on this..... the others are just playing it safe and not opening their mouths to get into trouble.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev Emch
    ...5). Years ago, an instructor told us that the odds of using your ejection seat is 1 in 8. For every 8 pilots who fly planes with ejection seats, one of you will have the golden opportunity to test it out for real! I always felt that was a bit high but it made me realize that operating some machines just has a certain level of danger that cannot be changed or legislated away.....
    Dev - If the level of danger could not be changed your instructor would have said that for every 8 pilots who fly planes one of you will have the golden opportunity to fly screaming into the dirt in a ball of flame. The level of danger has been changed because the ejector seat has been invented. Like the Sawstop has been invented. Like the Sawstop, the ejector seat is not without a price. The corolary to your ejector seat statement is that 7 out of 8 planes are paying the cost/weight price of the ejector seat for no reason. Surely all we have to do is tell the pilots only ever to fly in perfectly maintained aircraft and never to go utside the operational envelope for the aircraft and there will be no need for ejector seats.

    Sawstop is a good tool. As far as I can see most of the safety benefits come from things which are absolutely nothing to do with blade braking. It happens to have blade braking as well. Bravo. I strongly suspect that it will change the market substantially and that the change will be to the better.

  11. #11
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    Ian... I concede. Your right about the ejection seat. Without it, your in a world of horse manure should you need to use it.

    But one of my arguments was that of consistency. Why not put this thing on shapers? The most dangerous machine I have ever used is the shaper when its configured for either free form shaping or tenoner operations where the main fence is off the machine. Trust me, using table saws is child's play compared to this machine! If you have a problem with table saw blades giving you the willies, this will cause you to wet your pants! So why dont we put the safety device where it can do some real good. Often, table saw accidents nip off one or two fingers.... a major shaper accident can take your whole hand!

  12. #12
    Dev

    I use shapers (we call them spindle moulders) every day. If there was a Shaperstop, that was otherwise at least as safe as the machine I use, I would buy it. If there was never a sawstop there will never be a Shaperstop (or a Bandsawstop, or a Crosscut stop, etc...)

    In the meantime I just use the machines as safely as I can and make sure that the operations I use it for are appropriate to the tooling available. And in this instance I consider guards, fences, powerfeeds etc. to be part of the tooling. I have made the point previously that even Sawstop technology appeared tomorrow on every new machine that carried any risk, it would be many years before they were prevalent in all workshops. In the meantime we all need to bear the risks in mind and work on well maintained machines operating within their design envelope.

  13. #13

    Oh BOY!

    Remember Seinfeld?
    Yada,yada,yada,
    My story,
    I have been pushing wood through a table
    saw for 30 years. My father who I now work with
    Is 80 years young and has had a shop since his teens.
    My son, is 15 and likes what I do.
    I directed my Father one day to the sawstop website.
    I asked what he thought and left the room.
    When I came back he was on the phone.
    I asked just what the heck he was doing when he hung up.
    I bought it. Thats nice Bob, think we should discuss it?
    Whats to discuss he said.
    You would simply be stupid not to buy this saw.
    Never mind that you might not cut your fingers off,
    It is simply the best made saw out there of this type.
    It will be here tomorrow, complete with gloat and 8x10
    glossy pictures.
    I refuse to to write a review or speculate on its merits
    or lack thereof until I have this baby in my hot little hands.
    And I really won't consider he said /she said pro/con arguments.
    Unless of course you own one.
    Per
    "all men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night....wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible."
    T.E. Lawrence

  14. #14
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    Dev,

    Wow! It doesn't usually take more than one cup of coffee to work through a single page thread. Thanks for the thoughts. Let me see if I can boil it down.

    Just work safely.

    I don't buy this argument. They say that there are more than 30,000 ER visits on account of table saw cuts in the US each year. I bet that very few of the operators (victims?) thought they were working in an unsafe manner at the time. I also bet that a lot of the cuts happened to experienced workers. We all know to stop at red lights, yet every year thousands of people die in crashes after mentally blipping and failing to notice and stop at a red light. We're imperfect. I like having SawStop on my saw, just as I also like having airbags in my cars.

    False trips, high costs, and downtime

    Before the saws came out there were plenty of folks, such as the Power Tool Institute (PTI), saying that the blade brakes would often trip falsely and prove too inconvenient and expensive for professional settings. With several hundred in shops (as of this writing), those problems have not appeared. There have been a few false trips, in almost all cases on account of operator error. Keep a spare cartridge around and you're back working in 10 minutes. There have also been some saves. At this point it looks like things are working out a whole lot more like SawStop projected than how PTI warned. FWIW, I find the PTI tactics on this matter much more deceptive and offensive than SawStop's.

    If the technology is to be required, it should be required on all power tools that can cut people.

    Implementation of the technology on table saws is easier (big cabinet to hold the parts) and more cost effective (lower % added to tool cost) than on other power tools. You imply that brakes should not be required on table saws because the technology cannot reasonably be spread to all power tools. That doesn't make any sense to me. Should we require airbags on bicycles because they have been proven effective in cars? I don't think so.

    The technology should not be forced on other manufacturers.

    I agree! I believe that the marketplace should decide whether or not table saws should have blade brakes, but I don't have any problem with SawStop's CPSC petition because they are acting within the system. Don't like the system? Complain to your representatives. SawStop has no lobbyists. I don't believe there has been any bribing, influence peddling, threatening, illegal campaign contributions, or other immoral attempts to stack the deck in their favor. I also think that all of this CPSC fuss is moot. The petition won't be granted. Any broad industry requirements will arrive, if they ever do, after the patents have expired.

    Why not just forget table saws and make everyone use CNC machines instead?

    One could imagine OSHA deciding that table saws are unsafe, and barring their use in all professional shops under OSHA regulation. Safety innovations like SawStop could stop that from happening, and preserve our ability to work with table saws. Thanks SawStop!

    The death of heavy and high quality tools

    The trend these days is indeed toward cheaper and lighter construction. That tag does not apply to SawStop - or at least not their Cabinet Saw. Inspect one closely. You will find massive construction and accurate machining. I don't see much corner cutting, but I can imagine a number of ways the saw could have been built less expensively, which is one of the reasons I bought one of the early production versions. It's a very solid saw. I hope they keep that quality and do not yield to the temptation to evolve it into a cheap saw. In a time when everyone else is building 1950 designs to 2005 quality (or lack thereof), it is refreshing to see a company that builds 2005 designs with 1950 mass and attention to detail.

    Regards,

    Dave

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Laguna Beach , Ca.
    Posts
    7,201
    I am glad to see there are no strong opinions or lengthy responses on this topic....(looks like the typing class I should have taken )
    Last edited by Mark Singer; 04-24-2005 at 1:02 PM.
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

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