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Thread: Frusterated and discouraged

  1. #16
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    May 2012
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    Prince George, BC
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    Thanks Prashun, the one year dry time has been on the 4x12's....is that still a little short? I'm not sure what the mc status will be on the 6x6 pieces. I may also have the option of going with a pine in a bit smaller dimension. The cool thing about the pine is that its covered with these long wide blue/grey colored bands due to the pine beetle infestation up here. I have to look at the pine further to determine if it will work for my bench base...any input is appreciated!

    As far as the cost goes, $50 for the two slabs is a screamin' deal compared to my experience earlier in the day....

    I really don't know about the stability....I'm not sure what to think. I've used para-lam beams in construction and know that they are supposedly stronger than a solid wood beam of equal dimensions, but thought this was due to the amount of compression and adhesives used in their manufacture. Correct me if I'm wrong (please!), but I thought that a solid slab was the preferred method if available?

  2. #17
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    May 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    You need 1" thickness PER YEAR to dry hard woods. Would be less for soft woods,but more than a year is needed. Can you get anyone to include it in a kiln load for you?
    Thanks George, I wasn't aware of the dry times. I have a neighbor who works at one of the local mills....I'll stop by and see if something like that is an option....sounds like I may be continuing my search, or going with a lamination....not certain I can afford all the clamps!

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    South Coastal Massachusetts
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    That's excellent.

    People have been building this way for centuries - there are still practioners out there.
    I recommned finding any local boat builders, they've always got stash and tools to sell.

    There's a small scale school in Vancouver, they might point you toward someone closer to home.
    (Or you could make the jaunt, yourself!)

    http://www.thejoint.ca/

    I highly recommend taking a few hours of basic instruction, there's no substitute to direct tutelage.
    I've had several "A-ha!" moments that weren't part of the curriculum, and they've saved me months of struggle.

    If you do take a course, choose one where they supply, and provide access to tools.

    Keep a list of each tool used, and tick off the number of times you handle each.
    Most tickmarks = first purchase

    One thing I would recommend, if you intend to follow a self-study, have a look on YouTube at Paul Seller's stuff.
    The man has some simple methods that are efficient and repeatable.

    Most of his handplaning is done with a very small #4, about the same size as my favorite "Jack plane" from HNT Gordon.

    Keep us posted on the build, won't you?

    PS - Have a look at Rob's Logan Cabinet Shoppe on bench design and workholding. Some bench building conventions
    were set out by hardware makers, not furniture makers.

  4. #19

    'Listen to your elders...'

    No reason to be discouraged, build what you want. If you want to build a slab top...do it. When you're building your second top, this time laminated because you want it to stay flat, you'll look back on that jerk and may say to yourself...that guy was a real jerk, but now I understand he may have been just trying to help me out. Making your own mistakes is the best teacher. You'll also learn a lot about wood...slabs don't stay flat, they move back and forth, dry season...wet season. Not just slabs either, but (most) every piece of wood you ever assemble is going to move and in time, you'll learn how it's going to move and know whether or not to make allowances for it. It's the essence of the craft, no way around it.

    You're in the fun stage, you get to learn everything, most of it for the first time. Embrace it. Don't let one personality-challenged guy get to you, most guys in this field are some of the greatest guys you'll ever meet. You're definitely going in the right direction here (SMC) as you've just met a bunch of them.
    Sierra Madre Sawing and Milling
    Sierra Madre, California

  5. #20
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Prince George, BC
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    Hi Jim...thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the school in Vancouver and only recently learned about Jim Tolpins school in Port Townsend. Its about a 12-14 hour drive from home here but I had thought about trying to get down there for one of his courses. Unfortunately, summer is a very busy time at work and I wasn't sure about how I was going to get the time off. It would be an easy sell to my wife as she always seems to be up for a shopping trip to Vancouver!

    My kit is coming along...I've got my basic plane set (LV low angle smoother, jack and Jointer) and have been bringing a few old saws back to life. After a bit more over time at work I'll be purchasing my sharpening kit from Stu and collecting a few other of the "basics". I like your idea of keeping track of the tools used during a class, and if I get to one, I'll be sure try that out.

    Heading over to you tube and the Logan cabinet shop site now!

  6. #21
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Jackson, TN
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    130
    Having done the laminated bench thing without a bench to work from a couple years ago, I would strongly recommend you start with those slabs. They won't be dry yet (although the will be considerably drier if they have been there for two summers instead of just one) and they will move some, but you have the tools to flatten a bench. Just make sure to build a rock solid base, and then if you decide you need to build a laminated top later, you have a space to work from. You can put a new top on your existing base if you want.

    If you want to get them drier, you might be able to find a small kiln operator. I know some of the guys with bandsaw mills have built their own kilns. Just make sure they know what they're doing if you're going to invest time and money into that. This lumber will take longer to dry than 4/4 or 8/4 stuff, and if it's done wrong it can really affect the usability of the piece because of warping, splitting, etc.

    If you do use these without further drying, make sure they have been treated with Timbor or something like it. It's probably already been done by the guy you're buying them from, but better to be safe than sorry when it comes to wood bugs.

  7. #22
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    Jan 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
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    $12 BF is ridiculous! I know where you can get a stack of 80 pieces of 4" x 6" old growth DF for $2 BF (or less) just East of Windsor, Ontario. Each timber is 21.75 feet long with no holes, metal or large knots. It was all removed from an old Hiram Walker warehouse in the late 70's. Apparently, there was so much DF taken from these warehouses around Essex, Ontario that auctioneers around there can't even get a bid on a stash of wood that would probably go for $5-7 in other markets.

    Best regards,

    Ron

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
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    Rob, not to worry. We all take our lumps at the beginning of this hobby with experiences like yours. It's part of the learning process, and I know it can be especially frustrating for those of us who are not as exposed to the wood and tool industries (e.g. by having very unrelated vocations). I remember my first trip to the hardwood dealer to buy an exotic board for my first "special" project. The guy sized me up as having no idea what I was doing, was rude, and completely ripped me off (but I was clueless to this fact until later). My first trip to a WW store to place an order for a tablesaw? Wowsers...equally maddening. But stick with it, keep reading, learn from those who don't mind helping, and soon you'll know more than some of the goofballs giving you grief in the beginning.

    By the way, I imagine the $12/bdft price was for clear, vertical grain DF. Even my hardwood dealer (with very very good prices for the region) charges $7-8/bdft for the stuff and we're practically rolling in it down here.

    Good luck with your bench build!

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    In my basement
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    Don't feel bad about hand planing the boards.

    My local sawyer (thankfully I found him on the second try) looked at me like I was nuts when I told him I wanted to hand plane hickory to size for a bench. His comment was along the lines of "Not afraid of hard work, huh? Make sure and eat your Wheaties before you attempt it." He was right. . .hand planing a bench of hickory is not easy, but it is an indescribable satisfaction to be able to do what most people are either not skilled enough to do or don't have the patience/endurance to do.

    That being said, I'm not sure I would go back to that sawyer, Rob. I can handle a lot, but poor customer service is not something I handle well.

    Also, I would take Mr. Posey's advice. Unless you're up for crazy clamping and some cussing, having something to build a bench on is a great idea. I'm trying to build a laminated hickory workbench right now, and after 2 months I finally have the base done (and finished with a coat of BLO). It was not easy, and the tiny bench my wife bought from IKEA didn't last through the mortises I chopped out. So like David said, make sure and make a solid base, mate it with a slab (but make sure it's removable from the base), then work on laminating something. Double bonus, you can use the slab for another project, or maybe even some sort of table.
    The Barefoot Woodworker.

    Fueled by leather, chrome, and thunder.

  10. #25
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    Sep 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Dickson View Post
    Thanks George, I wasn't aware of the dry times. I have a neighbor who works at one of the local mills....I'll stop by and see if something like that is an option....sounds like I may be continuing my search, or going with a lamination....not certain I can afford all the clamps!
    Rob- What George is quoting is very much the rule of thumb for air-drying lumber. But as someone that cuts the trees down and mills some of his own lumber, I can tell you that there's a great deal of variation around this rule of thumb. For southern yellow pine in my area (SE US), one summer in the stacks is more than sufficient to get the MC content as low as it's going to go.

    There's an inexpensive way you can verify the MC of wood that you want to use as long as you have a cheap kitchen scale. Cut a sample out of the board - the ideal way to do this is to buy wood that is twice as long as you need, cut them in two, and take a sample out of the former middle of the board. If you can't do that because your lumber is only as long as you need it, not to worry - take about a 1/2" drill, and drill a hole to a depth of 1/2 of the thickness of the lumber, and carefully catch all of the shavings from the drilling operation. The only drawback of the drill sample method is that you will have to have a quite accurate scale to get an accurate MC.

    Weigh either the sample or the shavings immediately on the kitchen scale, and write down the weight. Place the sample/shavings in the oven that has been pre-heated to about 150 deg F. Leave the sample/shavings in for 30 minutes, then take it out and weigh it. Do that again in an hour. Continue baking/weighing until the sample levels out at a specific weight. Then subtract the baked sample weight from the original, pre-baked sample weight, and divide by the baked sample weight. This result will be the MC of the pre-baked sample, and thus a pretty good estimate of your lumber.

    Anything less than about 10% MC is A-OK for building a bench. If you're in a wet area (like the Pacific Northwest), and your shop is going to be in an unheated space, probably anything less than about 14% should be fine.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary AB, Canada
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    If you are in BC, have a look at http://www.westwindhardwood.com/

    I live in Calgary and ordered 200bf of kiln dried 8/4 Ash for my bench from these guys and had it delivered from there mill to my house in Calgary. At the time it worked out to $2.95/BF. They were easy to deal with and everything was quick. Pricing was really reasonable and I was not disappointed in the least. If you order larger quantities like I did, they will give you better pricing than what shows on the site too...

    As for going into stores and getting those cross-eyed looks and idiotic comments from people that just have no concept of what hand tool work is all about, I get that all the time too, as I am sure most of us who work like this do. Don't let it get to you. I have learned skate around what I am doing when asking advice until I can establish that the person I am talking to is not a complete fool. Places like this forum are where you will get your best advice, and then just shop accordingly. Who cares that the worker bees stand around wondering what the hell you are doing while sorting through piles of 2/12's or whatever... lol

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Centralia, WA
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    175
    I'd say go with the 4x12s and 6x6s from the timber frame guy. $50 for a 2ft x6ft top with only one glue line seems pretty reasonable to me. Yes the wood will move some as it dries and you may even have to reflatten it a time or two but you'll have a good sturdy bench ready for a lifetime of work when you're done. Wood you get from a local mill will probably be wetter still. If the boards are plain sawn and they most likely are, point the rings up on one and down on the other to minimize cupping as they dry. You'll end up with one cupping up and the other cupping down instead. A little easier to keep flat than having the cup all in one direction and less stress on the bench's frame. You may also consider making the bench where you can take it apart. If you build a roubo style with flush legs, eventually the top will shrink and pull the legs into an "A" frame shape. It may not affect your work, but if it does it would be good to be able to remove the stretchers and shorten them after the top is done shrinking from drying.
    Just my opinions,
    Rodney
    From the wet side of Washington.
    You may want to bring the guys at the wood store you went to a jar of Vaseline. Sounds like they have their heads stuck in some pretty dark places.

  13. #28
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    Apr 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Dickson View Post
    I really don't know about the stability....I'm not sure what to think. I've used para-lam beams in construction and know that they are supposedly stronger than a solid wood beam of equal dimensions, but thought this was due to the amount of compression and adhesives used in their manufacture. Correct me if I'm wrong (please!), but I thought that a solid slab was the preferred method if available?
    Laminated lumber, including paralams and glulams and other products, are a commercial product also know as "engineered" lumber, meaning that standard cross sections have been designed and their "engineering strength" determined through extensive destructive testing. This engineering strength is intended to be an approximation of the minimum stress a member can be subjected to without failing (plus a safety factor, of course).

    The problem with solid lumber/timbers as a commercial product and from a structural engineering viewpoint is that they are not uniform. Besides defects like warping, twisting, cracks, shakes and knots, grain runout is entirely unpredictable from piece to piece with resulting unpredictable variations in strength. So to account for the unpredictable nature of solid lumber, the engineering strength is assumed to be much less than that a of a perfect, defect-free, or even average, piece of solid lumber of the same dimensions. Laminated lumber does not (and cannot) rely on continuous grain, and shakes and knots are not an issue, so even though it is heavier and often weaker than a perfect (or even average) piece of lumber of the same dimensions and wood type, its engineering strength is considered higher.

    But if you are doing handwork, and can eyeball, and thump, and spring a piece of lumber with your own two hands, you can tell for yourself if it is strong/weak/suitable and use/modify/reject it accordingly. So the careful and experienced woodworker can still use solid lumber more efficiently than an idiot can use engineered lumber. Sadly, such skills are gone, or at least not taught to Mexican workers on American jobsites.

    Sorry for the lecture, but the way the engineered lumber business markets its materials confuses most people, and irritates the hell out of me.

    Stan

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney Walker View Post
    You may want to bring the guys at the wood store you went to a jar of Vaseline. Sounds like they have their heads stuck in some pretty dark places.
    But my, they are flexible!

  15. #30
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    Jul 2008
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    Courtenay BC Canada
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    $12.00 would probably be per lineal foot for C & Better KD Clear S4S D-Fir. Lumberyards in BC stock clear moulding grade fir. Its S4S and gets used for interior finishing .. Its expensive, but ready to go .. Basically it sells for about $7500/FBM ..

    Westwind is a great supplier but they are located on the Island. Shipping back to the Mainland and up to PG won't be cheap. I am betting you went into Windsor..

    If your building a bench, " S4S KD-FIR " is pretty easy to get in BC .. It wont be clear, but it will be cheap. Its dried to 17% rather than the 8% that moulding grade fir will be dried to, but I would still use it.. I am willing to guess that 2x4 will cost about .35 cents a foot. Coastal Fir is superior to the Interior fir your going to find in PG but end of the day, if you laminate it all together, it will be really strong.

    If you want something nice, your probably going to have to order it from Vancouver. I can give you a long list of wholesalers in the lower mainland if you need it .. Depends on what species and quality you want.
    Last edited by Rick Fisher; 12-07-2012 at 4:02 AM.

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