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Thread: Krenov versus traditional Wood planes

  1. #1
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    Krenov versus traditional Wood planes

    Now that I'm thinking about building some of my own tools in the future (distant future most likely), I'm pondering what kinds of tools I'd want to build.

    Looking at some of the planes folks have made, I notice a lot of very nice Krenov style planes in every size and function. I also have been thinking about the 'traditional' style of planes that I have already.

    So here's the $64 question: what are the differences in crafting/using these two style of planes?

    (Derek Cohen: if you happen on this thread I've seen you make great examples of both so input por favor)

  2. #2
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    Krenov planes are much quicker and easier to make, but traditional planes made from a solid blank give you more bragging rights when you post them here on the Creek

    (sorry not helpful, I know)

  3. #3
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    I would rather make a single block plane as they are more traditional, which is important to me. But I've made both styles and the Krenov style is infinitely easier. So for your first, you might consider one. Any hand made tool is worthy of gloating about.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  4. #4
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    I started making Krenov's by taking a class from David Fink (one of Krenov's students) and made a few different sizes etc. Learning to get a dead flat bed is vital to making those planes sing. I then took the class by Larry Williams and Don McConnell at Kelly Mehler's school on solid body escapement style planes. It was harder for sure. The first class was a weekend. The latter was a week. Traditional style and escapement planes require a few unique tools, ie floats sold by Lie-Nielson, where as the Krenov planes don't. The Krenov blades can be had through Ron Hock, Lee Valley, etc.

    So, as you can tell, I suggest starting out with a Krenov and moving on from there. My first plane created some gossamer shavings on Sunday afternoon after the class. Immediate gratification.

    Good luck!

    William

  5. #5
    David Finck's book and DVD on making Krenov style planes is top notch. They cover the topic in great detail and clarity and goes beyond just making of the plane as well - sharpening, block plane tune up, making bench tools and more.

  6. #6
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    I have made several (three or four) Krenov-style planes after reading his books. The last one was 28 years ago. That was before Hock blades, so I bought antique planes with "cast iron" blades at flea markets and modified them. Those old blades cut really well, BTW. I have since made ten or so solid-body Japanese planes using blades purchased in Japan. I have not made American/European style wood bodied planes, however.

    The problem I recall with the Krenov-style planes I made was that they were harder to precisely adjust the blade and keep it adjusted since the only thing keeping the blade in place was the wooden wedge acting against the crosspin. In other words, the blade was not as secure as I wanted. They still worked well but took more fiddling than I liked. Perhaps this was due to a lack of skill on my part. Japanese planes don't have this problem, and neither do the traditional wooden-bodied American planes I have used. I also like the lower CG of the Japanese plane and the simplicity of the design more than the Krenov style plane. That said, If I did not have my Japanese planes I would no problem going back to using Krenov-style planes with the antique blades (I still have the blades stored somewhere).

    Stan

  7. #7
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    I don't care for the really short blades that Krenov planes always seem to have. I made a quick and dirty curved base Krenov type plane for scooping out arch top musical instruments. It works fine,but I didn't use the short blade. I made one from 01 of more normal length.

    A basic fault with built up planes,is the sole can droop down from the pressure of the wedge just behind the throat of the plane. Certainly on low angle ones this can happen. I much prefer regular,made from the solid planes.

  8. #8
    I can't speak about building a traditional plane (though it is on my to do list) but I have built 3 Krenov style planes so I can fill you in a bit on that. They are not terribly hard to make (I did it without a bandsaw.) The great part is that you can easily customize the planes for your needs. I have a smoother with a Hock blade with a bed angle of approximately 53% - it can't pronounce 'tear out'. I also have a razee style jack plane that Ron Hock custom ground the blade and chip-breaker radius (for no additional cost!) - it is my 'go to' fore plane. I also have a smoother with a Lee Valley wooden plane blade which strangely doesn't need sharpening very often. It is about the size of a #4 so I use it all the time for general work - I have a (terrible) modern Stanley #4 which I never use (it is the plane I give to others when they want to borrow a plane.) Bottom line - for me they don't replace metal planes because they are a bit fussy to adjust, but they are a great addition, are fun to make, and the feel of a wood plane sliding over wood is great.

    With regards to adjusting, use David Finck's method for making the wedge. Actually get his book, and his article on (I think) Fine Woodworking. The article is a very helpful 'summary'. If you pay attention to tuning the wedge the blade will hold so tight that it won't shift in use. The other particularly useful part of the book or article are his instructions on flattening the sole. If you do it his way (don't rub back and forth) you will end up with a dead flat sole.

  9. #9
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    There are advantages and disadvantages to every style of wooden plane. Of course a laminated plane is easier to make - no bed to chop out, etc. However, one of the features I dislike about a Krenov plane is the space taken by the cross piece (that holds the wedge). It is possible to add cheeks to an existing laminated body: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...ToAKrenov.html

    My preference is for a solid body plane. I cannot offer evidence one way of the other that it moves less or is stronger/weaker than a laminated version. It is just traditional.

    Here is a great article on chopping out a solid body: http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.com....ew-action.html

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #10
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    The proof is in the cutting.

    If you can get a good quality finish from a sharpened soup spoon - use that.
    If you're set on making furniture, time spent perfecting tools subtracts from other pursuits.

    I find that building the Krenov style Hock Kits is rewarding and quick.
    The critical step is inserting a solid cross pin to hold the wedge.

    If that flexes or is eccentric, the plane will always be finicky.

    FYI - I find the HNT Gordon planes a dream to use.
    They're expensive, but work well, right out of the box.

  11. #11
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    On the other hand,nice tools inspire me to do nice work. It's just human nature,not necessarily logical,but can't be left out.

    There are no cast iron blades! They are wrought iron bitted with carbon steel.

  12. #12
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    I made four planes from parts I bought from Steve Knight just before he stopped making planes. Steve's method provides a third, compromise option. Steve CNC routed his basic plane outline in the sides of two blocks of wood and then glued the two pieces together. An exact match isn't going to happen but the little difference is easier to work out than trying to chop it all from a solid piece. Of course the two sides could be worked by hand, slower than a CNC router but faster than working with one piece I think. The one glue joint down the middle of the plane provides a very similar plane to a solid piece plane.

    If the two halves used to make the plane are reasonably thick you end up with something between a Japanese and western plane that has some room for modification somewhat like a Krenov.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    ...An exact match isn't going to happen but the little difference is easier to work out than trying to chop it all from a solid piece. Of course the two sides could be worked by hand, slower than a CNC router but faster than working with one piece I think. The one glue joint down the middle of the plane provides a very similar plane to a solid piece plane.

    If the two halves used to make the plane are reasonably thick you end up with something between a Japanese and western plane that has some room for modification somewhat like a Krenov.
    Yeah, but if you haven't made solid planes, whether Japanese or western, you really don't know that it's easier/harder/or neither, right? And you certainly don't know that a plane of two halves approximates a Japanese plane, right? I really don't want to be too critical, but it sounds like you're coming to conculsions that are unfounded.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    On the other hand,nice tools inspire me to do nice work. It's just human nature,not necessarily logical,but can't be left out.

    There are no cast iron blades! They are wrought iron bitted with carbon steel.
    Of course you are correct about actual "cast iron" blades not existing. I should have written "Cast Steel" instead, which is what the stamp on the blades indicate. They are wrought iron backs hammer welded to steel plates made using the crucible process, a big improvement in steel-making technology at the time.

    Thanks for the correction.

    Stan

  15. #15
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    The fact of the matter is that the quality of the plane made is dictated by the skills and execution of the planemaker. I always get a pretty good chuckle when the debates begin about which style makes a better plane.

    A good planemaker makes the plane perform to optimal level by executing the geometry required to make a good plane, and applying that to the wooden block chosen for the plane.

    Wooden planes are so easy to adjust once they are made properly that it doesn't take a PhD in astrophysics to make minor adjustments to them later on if/when they move. Every wooden plane, regardless of how it is made, is going to need an occasional tune-up (read "sole flattening") because we all know that wood moves.

    If the plane is made with correct geometry, and the iron is held properly by either a wedge in cheeks or a cross-pin wedge, and is tuned correctly, and the bed is 'square' to the sole, and everything else that needs to be square 'is', the plane is going to function beautifully. When the plane moves a little and comes out of 'flat', I can teach a 12 year old kid how to re-flatten it again on some sandpaper glued to my granite surface plate.

    What really gets expressed in these threads, in actuality, is the debate over which style of plane you are most comfortable with using. I can guarantee you that, as a planemaker, I can make a plane out of a solid billet of wood, or in the laminated fashion, and let you test drive either. Once I've tuned them, they will both perform equally well, and will both require occasional re-tuning in the future.

    What we could also be debating is what shape of a plane is the "Best"? In my opinion, it's the shape that best fits your hands and the ergonomics of how you push, or pull, the plane through the cut.

    Laminate them in 3 pieces, 2 pieces, or chop out of one piece. Add cheeks later; remove the crosspin; add a crosspin.......it's all personal preference.

    What matters most is "EXECUTION!"

    Jeff

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