new machinery list price

[David Scheckman]

Hi, We (a small custom cabinet and furniture shop) bought our one and only new piece of machinery 30+ years ago. A General 350 cabinet saw. All other major equipment is old used US (Powermatic, Moak etc) acquired on the cheap. I'm looking to replace or maybe augment the General saw with a new european slider. I've read all the threads about sliders, so no need to discuss cabinet saw vs. slider or one brand vs. the other. What I'm interested in is price. Both new and used. Thinking about what I expect are low to mid level saws. Felder 700, Minimax SC4, Altendorf WA6. Since these saws new list cost is in the range of a decent used pickup, I'm wondering if shopping for woodworking equipment is like shopping for autos. Bargaining etc. Web sites show list prices, to me this indicates actual quotes will be lower. How much lower should they be? When I receive a quote should I be expecting to actually purchase for less? What have folks actually paid for saws like the ones listed above? Does one do better if tools are bundled, if I were to buy a new shaper also?
Any advice is appreciated.
David

[Stephen Cherry]

I hear what you are saying, it's hard to tell if most of these machines are even in the ballpark of what is affordable. Felder does publish promotional prices, and woodweb sometimes has new machines listed.

I have a felder k975, which gobbles up anything in it's way with nice precision. THat said, I think I would rather have a 700 series felder saw-shaper combo, or like sized minimax. (I know, minor hijack- sorry)

[David Kumm]

Generally a saw shaper has some bang for the buck, more used than new but you still save about 2K with the combo. There is a fair amount of changeover though so if time is money you give some savings back. Felder is running a Christmas special now so that is about as good a price as you will get. They don't discount much further than that. SCMI was running a special on their 350 Class series some time ago at about 14K. the class is built heavier than the Nova series. Used sliders are so cheap now I would have to have a really great deal on a new to consider it. You can get a pretty nice Martin in the 10-12K range, Felder 975- one of my favorite heavy middle of the road saws for under 10K. SCMI are probably the best deal as there are so many of them out there. SI16W from late 80s to early 90s 4-6K, Hyrdro or later SI3200 for 5-8K, late 90s to early 2000s SI350 8-10K. All are heavier than the very good K700 or MM Elite. The Elite S is MM version of the 400 Nova series from SCM. Holz Her, Casadei, Casolin, Griggio are all about the equivalent to the SCMI older models. New large Chinese slider, Besse, Oliver, etc go for 10-12K and are well built but not as refined as the Euro stuff. Atendorf are all over as well. Pre 1995 use Phenolic ways which might be fine but if the table was used more in certain spots it is a problem. You will see a price difference between the phenolic and the steel way machines. Both Erik and Sam at MM are stand up guys and will give you the straight scoop. Felder has some great guys too who should talk to you. Some wiggle room but not like buying a car. I bought two SCMI SI16WA and made one great saw for under 5K and have extra motors, fences, electrics etc. Makes to difficult to justify new unless in a commercial setting and then I would want heavier than either a K700 or MM Elite. Just me. Dave

[David Scheckman]

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't thinking saw/shaper, more buying a saw and buying a shaper. Used would be great and I have been exploring that market. Being located in rural VT means a high likelihood of buying sight unseen and paying a premium for shipping plus having to worry about shipping damage. Or the possibility of traveling a bunch, which I'm not excited about. I haven't found anything that fits anywhere close yet. Still looking .
David

[David Kumm]

A separate shaper is easier to find and ship used than a long slider. Major savings though. WA6 is either Chinese or Brazilian, don't know which but neither has much resale value. In order of heft, Elite, K700, Elite S, K975. Depending on accessories 9-15K. Nice used shapers go 3-6K with a good fence and a feeder in the same quality range. New 6-8K Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

If you do tenoning on longer stock, such as table aprons, or breadboard ends on table tops, tenoning using the sliding table would be a big plus, in my opinion. Plus, I think that they are normally tilting shapers, which may be convenient for chairs, if you want to angle the tenon. And, you would likely want a feeder for the shaper, which would be good for ripping. I think it would have some synergy in the combination. If I had my ifins, I would have a saw-shaper, and a some shapers.

As for pricing, I've got a little less than 5k into my k975, which for me justifies some nosing around.

[David Scheckman]

The closest used deal I've been able to find is a SCMI SI 12 about 3hrs away. Small, which might be okay as I'm space limited. 3 phase which spells conversion for me. Limited info and photos so far. My guess is its pretty old, possibly 80's , I'm trying to get that info. Asking price under 3 grand and negotiable. The current owner did not use the scoring capability so who knows if it works. Not sure if there is dado capacity.

[David Kumm]

The closest used deal I've been able to find is a SCMI SI 12 about 3hrs away. Small, which might be okay as I'm space limited. 3 phase which spells conversion for me. Limited info and photos so far. My guess is its pretty old, possibly 80's , I'm trying to get that info. Asking price under 3 grand and negotiable. The current owner did not use the scoring capability so who knows if it works. Not sure if there is dado capacity.

David, that is on the high side for the SI12 unless really nice. Doubt it will have dado. I've got a slider with dado and while nice it isn't a deal breaker as I use the shaper for rabbiting. You lose your crosscut reference with the dado and i hate moving my fence once it is dialed in.

Stephen, you are the man. The K975 is a great saw and a nice blend of build quality and ergonomics. The older SCMI have heavy build but the ergonomics on the newer saws are better. David- try to buy Stephens saw. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

If you have the time I'm sure you can track down a nice used saw. I've seen a couple older Martin's go for under $5k in the last few years. If I had the room I would likely have jumped on one by now. One thing that has worked well for me in the past when I was ready to buy was posting a WTB on Woodweb. I was looking at buying a new slot mortiser several years ago but it was a 5 week lead time to get it shipped from Europe. So for the heck of it I posted a WTB and got a ton of responses from guys who had machines but just hadn't gotten around to posting them for sale. I ended up with a used Bini for less than half what the new one was going to cost me!

FWIW I saw the SCM too and thought it was a little high but not unreasonable depending on the condition. The thing I would worry about is the size, it's a pretty small slider and I'd be worried about being limited vs just buying the more common 8 or 10' sliders?

good luck,
jeffd

[Peter Kelly]

The closest used deal I've been able to find is a SCMI SI 12 about 3hrs away. Small, which might be okay as I'm space limited. 3 phase which spells conversion for me. Limited info and photos so far. My guess is its pretty old, possibly 80's , I'm trying to get that info. Asking price under 3 grand and negotiable. The current owner did not use the scoring capability so who knows if it works. Not sure if there is dado capacity.

Have you considered a vertical saw? Takes up considerably less spce than a slider. Seems to be no shortage of nice used ones on the market these days.

[joe aiello]

I am downsizing and among other things selling a Griggio 1500 sliding table saw. 48" crosscut,7 1/2hp,220v,3ph with score saw. nice machine,well kept and dead accurate .$2500 .... joe ....603-893-2826007 600x450-004.jpg

[David Kumm]

The Griggio was a nice saw. I think they may have been made by Casadei which is now part of SCM so some parts are still available too. Dave

[David Scheckman]

Sent you a private message regarding the saw.
Thanks,
David