[OP]
Guest
Nobody may be interested in these, but I (as todd hughes says sometimes) sort of collect sharpening stones....So as I keep some and some get passed along to the next person with an affliction, I'll post a few and describe them here. They are esoteric, and for woodworking purposes, inferior to newer offerings, but they do represent the kit that some folks used to use in the trades.
Member
A goofy stone thread, by a goofy guy, who only likes goofy movies (like Napolean Dynamite and Step Brothers), and who likes goofy retro toothpaste commercials, who thinks expensive marking knives are goofy, and who thinks only a goof would expose there end grain.
Whats not to love about this thread... I'll be reading it.
(P.S. If you like goofy movies may I recommend the masterpiece "Year One" staring Jack Black and Michael Cera... so bad its good)
I'd like to see that. I think our history is important.
[OP]
Guest
So, to start it off, this is a big charnley forest hone. They come in all sizes, often narrow, and most often with red streaks among the green. There are other types, though, like this one, where the stone is just a drab green.
Charnley forest hones are a type of novaculite hone (true arkansas stones are novaculite, but the charnley hone is quite a bit softer - still harder than almost all synthetic hones now, though) from the UK. They come in varying levels of fineness, but all that I've ever seen are fairly fine to extremely fine.
This one is exceedingly fine, broken in, it will match any or nearly any synthetic hone (it will improve the edge off of any of the synthetics that I have) .
These were used by craftsmen on tools. It must've been murder to try to keep a tool fresh with a stone this fine, or even one a little less fine. In the Holtzapffel ornamental turning book, other coarser stones are mentioned (like sandstone, etc), so craftsmen may have had other stones and mabye some did not.
The history shows that the washita types (like the old washitas that norton and pike sold) took over because they cut so much faster than the hone slates and charnleys that a lot of the craftsmen had to use.
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Member
Neat thread idea. I love stuff like this that shows the various stops and starts and paths that got us to where we are now.
Just wanted to say I love the lesson and I think this is will be a "sticky" at the end
[OP]
Guest
A couple more. These are out of my sold pile, there's nothing special or historical about these two, just good examples of inexpensive hones.
On the left is one of the inexpensive japanese stones that LV sold a while ago. In the world of japanese stones, there's no free lunch. These were about $45 each at the time, and that's probably fair. This one is what I would call a prefinisher in razors. You would put a razor on this one before moving onto a finisher. The reason it was in that collection of unsold hones from imanishi is because it has uneven abrasive and it's fairly soft. A skilled user can make use of it, though, and at the time, I sold it to a razor user with the chinese hone next to it because the chinese hone is super fine if used properly, it will make a polished bevel.
Uneven color isn't necessarily bad with japanese stones, but stones like this coloration are common and it would be worth slightly more if it was all green, and a lot more if it was all yellowish. LV didn't slight anyone with these stones, let me be clear about that. But anyone thinking they might chance into a $500 stone with a $50 stone would find out otherwise. I bought one, and a friend bought two, and he wasn't too happy with them. Out of guilt (his two were different than this one), I bought those from him and gave them away when I sold bigger stones. This was definitely the best of the three and a decent stone for $50 for all but someone who was already skilled in using hard natural stones to their greatest potential. The miners and stone dealers in japan know these stones as soon as they come out of the mine, the good ones (the ones that are going to go for hundreds or thousands of dollars) are pulled by the miners and graded right at the mine. The finest stones generally will go to razor use, and below that, the finest tool stones will be marked and sold for high dollars.
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The stone on the right is a guangxi stone from china. Actually, it came to me through woodcraft because I asked questions about it. Let me say that I got this stone, I thought it was not useful to woodworkers. and perhaps it isn't the best stone for a non-fanatic to use, but in the right hands it is an extremely capable stone and in the right razor user's hands, it is capable of doing a superb job creating an edge that surpasses any synthetic hone I've used. It was so slow on A2 that I told woodcraft I thought it wasn't as fine as they suggested and it was slow. I didn't know at the time how to use various types of slurry on a stone to work the edge until it's ready for clear water. Maybe we can talk about that some other time. Suffice it to say, stones like this type can be very useful because of how hard they are. They are capable of putting a 5000 grit type of hazy edge on something, or polishing way up to a bright polish with an edge that is superior to synthetic stones (the trouble is it takes a lot of time to get them, and other than maybe for carving tools, I don't think it's worth it to me to use any stone that has me in the act of sharpening for more than a minute).
These guangxi hones have all kinds of pet names on the razor boards. They vex beginners and advanced honers love them. They are used in china, too, and probably have been for a very long time. I don't know what woodcraft gets these for, but i'm going to guess it's next to nothing, because you can find big ones on ebay sometimes for $20. Of all of the ones I've had, though (i've had three of these guangxi hones), this one was by far the best, and the $44 that WC gets for it to me is well worth it. I felt guilty selling it, but I almost gave it away to a guy who was new to the hobby in razors and told him to call corporate woodcraft and thank them for the deal. I wish I had it back.
Tim Zowada (a bladesmith) took some pictures with different stones. You can see the "chinese 12k" picture which would've been done with no slurry, just clear water on the stone, and compare it to the norton picture in the bottom right.
http://www.tzknives.com/razoredges.html
Member
The Spyderco UIF edge looks very similar to the Chinese 12K edge. Is that correct?
[OP]
Guest
Back to the good stuff. This stone is courtesy of George. We've done some horse trading, I guess, never organized, but I've ended up with this stone, and it is a special one.
Coticules come from continental europe, belgium in most cases, I think. Some may have come from germany and france. What they are, like this one, is a vintage stone that was harvested right along a vein where the yellow coticule side of the stone was naturally right up against what is referred to as belgian blue. Both the yellow and the black ("blue") side are abrasive. The abrasive in the yellow side is much more dense, and the particles are smaller. Until recently due to creative marketing, most of the razor community doesn't have any evidence the blue side was ever considered anything other than a good backing for the yellow because the yellow by itself is not strong.
What's in these stones is garnets, and they are roundish in shape. They are super popular for razors because the roundish shape of the abrasives, even though the particles are large, will put a comfortable edge on a razor, which generally equates to shallow grooves and no persistent wire edge. Synthetic stones make for an uncomfortable edge.
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This stone comes from deep strata in a mine, which is where most of the vintage desirable coticules came from (i'm just parroting what I've been told). It is extremely abrasive feeling when you use it, but imparts a surprisingly gentle edge despite it sounding like it's sanding whatever's being sharpened. With a light touch, it can finish a razor. The fact that it still has its label is super cool given that it's a vintage stone.
The line is very defined between the coticule and the belgian blue.
Here is another that I just shipped off to someone. This one is from a different vein and is current mine material. It's from a vein called LaGrise, mined by a company still in business called Ardennes Coticule. It is also a natural combination hone, mined along a blue yellow line, but the lagrise vein is much different. I don't think they named the veins until recently, so where the Deep Rock coticule above came from would be subject to speculation. There were a lot of mines in business at one point when craftsmen and barbers were using the stones and there was a demand for them. Ardennes is all that's left, and I don't think they work full time. A large coticule is an expensive stone, and frankly, most of the large stones being mined are not impressive as a finishing stone. This particular lagrise cost $225, and is 8x2. As a used stone, this fairly large stone is worth about $150. The branded Deep Rock coticule about the same, despite the fact that it's only 5 inches long.
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Craftsmen in continental europe used these stones, some still do. I personally don't favor them for tools at all, though. You can disregard them unless you find them for cheap at a flea market, and then you can take something cheap at a flea market and sell it on ebay if you're a woodworker. Their virtue comes when you can use super light pressure honing something like a razor and not have the abrasives digging in full depth. Great for razors, not so great for tools. With tools, you'll just end up with an expensive stone and a tool that's not as keen as you'd.
AT one point, I said I would never own a coticule. So much for that. I have another that is vintage like George's but super fine and large (10x2). It cost me a mint, but in combination with the Deep Rock above, a razor edge that is like a barber's dream can be made. Very sharp, brightly polished, but on your face, it's smooth and never feels a threat to razor burn you. Cuts hair easily, but not skin.
Last edited by David Weaver; 12-12-2012 at 9:15 PM.
[OP]
Guest
Yep, a spyderco that has been allowed to settle in without being scuffed becomes very glassed over and very fine. Great stone for a skilled user who doesn't mind lifting a tool handle a little to work only the very edge. It can work finer than any other synthetic hone I've seen if used right, easily severing a hanging hair laid on a 25 degree chisel edge.Originally Posted by george wilson
[OP]
Guest
These are all finish stones. I've since sold all of them because I have better.
The one on the left is a stone that's current mine production from Germany. It's claimed to be a thuringian (named after a region in germany), and is black and as far as decent hone slates go, fairly coarse....like a 4000 grit stone. They market it as 8k, but unless you get it from an unscrupulous seller, it's cheap (like $20-$40 cheap for one 8x3). There are thuringian stones that are superb, but they are not for woodworking.
The one on the right, despite the washout from the camera flash, is a vivid purple slate from Wales. There were a lot of hone slates mined in wales, and a lot of novaculite stones from parts of the UK, like the charnley above, and other novaculite types that are harder and brighter green. This purple stone is referred to as a llyn melynllyn (i probably butchered that). It's a very fine stone, and pretty hard. It's capable for carving tools, woodworking tool finishing and razors. All in all, if they were marketed over here, an interesting stone to screw around with. To me, they are the equal of any arkansas finishing stone, but just a touch less hard. They have more aggressive and smaller abrasive in them.
Still, at that, they're a curiosity for woodworking. The German black slate hone can be avoided too, it's not as good as the purple slate.
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Both have slurry stones. The idea behind a slurry stone is that if you have something hard, like a hard slate, or a hard japanese stone, to get it to cut faster, sometimes you need to introduce a slurry (mix of water and stone particles) on the surface of the stone. A loose slurry cuts fast, but it's also a lot less fine. The truth of nearly all of these natural stones, the japanese stones included, is that the particles really aren't that small. The purple slate on the right probably has 4 or 5 micron particles, the finest japanese stones probably 3 or 4, and the coticules might be 10 microns or bigger. The virtue of the stones is that if they are hard enough to hold their abrasives, the abrasives will dull and cut a shallower groove, and if you have the skill and the patience, you can create a super edge from one of these stones. For woodworking, it's a waste of time (to me). But as a razor honing techique, it's extremely useful. You might only hone a razor once every 50 shaves, so spending 5 minutes every two months is no big deal.
The tradeoff is that once you go to water only and have no slurry on a surface, a stone will cut slowly. It will also almost refuse to cut some some harder and tougher steels. You would be surprised, if you have a stone like an arkansas stone that is reputed to not cut A2 or whatever, if you scuff the surface and have a slurry of abrasive particles on it, it will cut fairly well, even on tough alloys. It just runs out of steam pretty quickly, and because the particles are large, if you have to go to slurry, the edge isn't as fine as you'd like.
That said, on a stone that is allowed to settle in, I can, again, make an edge on a razor with a translucent arkansas that surpasses anything with an aggressive synthetic abrasive. It will just take a while and require a very light touch.
Anyway, here's another welsh hone slate. All black, fairly fine. I have no idea what did to the surface, but another shaver is using it now. I just didn't think it was all it promised to be.
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All three of these stones were inexpensive, except to ship them from europe to here. The top two slates are 8x3, and they were $20 and $45 respectively. The bottom one is 6x3, and I think it was probably about $40.
Interesting, but useful only maybe to a carver or a shaver (and there are better things to sharpen carving tools and shaving tools, though these are acceptable).
[OP]
Guest
This is the holy grail (right now) for razors. These are thuringian hones, like the black one above, but they are extremely consistent, super fine and have been mined out since the 1920s as far as I know. Give or take a few years.
From time to time, you can find these in a woodworker's toolbox from yesteryear, usually beat up from sharpening tools. They are a hone slate type, but they are the best hone slate known.
If you're ever at a flea market and you see any of the following:
*escher
*SR Droescher
*Barber's Delight, or
*a pike stone that looks light green like this
But it and sell it to a shaver. These were not inexpensive when they were new, but they were not horribly expensive. A Barber's delight was either $1 or $2, depending on when you got it. A Y/G escher like the long branded escher shown (9x2 inches) would've been maybe up to about $7, which would've been like 2 day's wages at the time.
People didn't have a lot of money back then, so if you weren't well off, and maybe even if you were, you were unlikely to have a stone like any of these. They were sold to barbers, and if you had a straight razor, it was common practice to maintain your straight razor with a barber hone (which is an inexpensive synthetic stone) and a strop, and when you could no longer take the edge, you could take your razor to a barber and pay them to hone it for you.
IF this stone was still full thickness, it could be sold to a shaver for about $1000. Even one 7x1.5 inches would sell for about $600, same with a barber's delight or droescher They have to have their original label to bring that kind of money. But if you're the type who goes to flea markets, keep your eyes open for them. Just watch out for green synthetic carborundum company hones that look similar, they're only worth about $20.
The one pictured has cracks, is only a little more than half thickness (some barber loved it big time) and it still cost the princely sum of $400. They are the closest thing to magic with a straight razor as there is anywhere. They create the sought after smooth edge that cuts hair easily but doesn't irritate skin, and they are easy to use. They are the top of the hone slates, without a doubt, and their price and the fact that they are not as hard as some hard hone slates and definitely not as durable as an oilstone makes them out of line for woodworking.
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The stone to the right of the escher in one of the pictures belongs to someone on this board. It, too, is a spectacular hone to shave off of, it might be a bit on the super keen side compared to a branded escher hone (it's actually harder and makes a sharper edge), but it's a stone any razor user would find no fault with.
It's anybody's guess if these were ever used by professional craftsmen. I would think the answer would be no, as coticules would've been available and I've only seen advertisements marketing these to barbers. They can be found in toolboxes, and from time to time someone will show up on the razor board saying they found one in a discarded tool box at a flea market with tools for $2. I'm sure most craftsmen never saw one.
They can be a lot of different colors. Yellow/Green, Light Green, Blue/Green, Blue/Gray, Grayish or Black.... The fineness tends to vary with the color.
When the deposits got mined out, the company wound down and eventually either sold or the dust from cuttings was sold, as the last hurrah for a follow-on company was taking the cuttings and pressing the dust into stones. Those pressed stones are more rare, but not worth as much. They might be stamped E&CO or something like that, but not with escher.
Contributor
I've wanted a Charnley Forest for a long time, just to give it a go. I found a quite fine olive green stone, seems pretty soft, the other day, but have no way of knowing if its a Charnley. It is close to a foot long, but only 2" wide. I'll get a pic or two tonight and post it here.
Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.
[OP]
Guest
If I can't figure out if it's a charnley, I'll send a picture to a couple of european stone sellers and ask them.
Take a picture close up so I can see the surface. Charnleys will usually show some kind of pores or streaks. In the case of this stone, though you can't see it, it has tiny black pores on the surface.
Member
This may out me as a wannabe stone aficionado, but I think this thread is fascinating.
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