The goofy stones thread....

[David Weaver]

Here are a couple more odd ducks, and slightly larger & longer ones at that. The one on top I call the "Brindle Stone" and is in a wooden box labeled "NYB Co." which my research indicates was the New York Boiler Co. Ever wonder how all the houses in New York got heated in the winter before heating oil? Lots of wood and coal; one could see the necessity of sharpening a lot of axes and possibly other edge tools in such a setting. I've seen a stone like this characterized on ebay as a "Turkey Stone," but my suspicion is that the seller called it that more because it resembles the mottled brown and dark brown of a turkey feather than its ultimate origin. So-called "Turkey Stones" were, according to my research, actually quarried in Crete. They are supposedly gray, often with white veins, and could be used with oil or water. At one time they were held in very high regard by the craftsmen and barbers of Europe. I don't think the "Brindle Stone" is an example of the fabled "Turkey Stone."

David Weaver has seen this stone and supposed it was a soft Arkansas of some variety, and as I started to flatten it, it gave off a sort of fine, sedimentary slurry reminiscent of the silica in Arkansas stones. But it's exceedingly hard; the flattening process was tedious in the extreme, so I got it "mostly there" in hopes of finishing the job later. The surface I was able to grade down is glassy and unusually fine.

The second stone has an oleaginous, slate-y feel to it, like oil shale. If the edges weren't so straight I'd suppose it had been made by just some guy somewhere from a local quarry like some stones you see with unfinished bottoms. Haven't given this one much use yet, and had speculated that it was some chip of slate brought over by a Welshman. David has also seen this one and may have something to say about it. As I recall, he'd thought it was sufficient as an intermediary stone.

The first one may be a washita stone, now that we've had more occasion to see some labeled washita stones in person. It may also be a soft or hard arkansas. The mottled look isn't unlike a lot of pike washitas.

The black slate caused me some razorburn! I thought I had a razor sharp enough to shave the back of my neck with...well, it was sharp enough to cut the hair just fine, but the edge was ragged enough to make my neck look like someone raked it with a very fine garden rake...dark red burn that lasted several days. It would be a nice precurser to a finishing slate.

I've seen Todd Hughes list yellowish washita/soft arkansas stones as turkey stones. WAY different than the turkish oilstones that are black with a flakey look, and finer (and softer).

[Jim Koepke]

It may be there are multiple reasons a razor gets more action in the middle. It could be bad strop technique with only the middle of the blade getting the action on the strop. Even with the blade being pulled lightly to expose the full edge to the strop, the middle of the blade sees more contact with the strop.

jtk

[george wilson]

Jim,your illustration is the first time I've ever seen a Tam O Shanter for knives. All the rest are those little silversmith's pencils(1/4" sq.). Now I've learned something.

[jamie shard]

The black slate caused me some razorburn! I thought I had a razor sharp enough to shave the back of my neck with...well, it was sharp enough to cut the hair just fine, but the edge was ragged enough to make my neck look like someone raked it with a very fine garden rake...dark red burn that lasted several days. It would be a nice precurser to a finishing slate.

I have a stone that looks very much like the black one. Mine is purplish-black. It's a wierd combination of waxy and gritty. It's gives more of a burnishing polish with deeper scratches in the signature. It sorta works on woodworking tools as a touch-up stone, used with pulling strokes. A push stroke has a tendency to cut into the stone.

Are these black arkansas or some other kind of stone?

[David Weaver]

They're a different kind of stone. At the risk of butchering what goes on with the stones, they all have some sort of silica based abrasive, but the novaculite stones (arkansas stones, etc) have or may have undergone a chemical reaction that slates haven't. That's as close as I can remember from the razor boards.

There are very hard slates, though, but none that I've used are quite as resistant to a scratch on a push stroke as a black or translucent stone. The one in johns picture (the black one) is fairly soft. The purple one at the beginning of this thread is hard. Though not exactly the same, the ozuku super hard japanese stones are also hard but fall short of black or translucent arkansas and can be scratched though deep gouging on any of the hardest slates or japanese stones would be really hard to do.

[Mel Fulks]

David, I have made scratch pattern samples for my hones. The BBW is the only one that leaves a mottled ,almost engine turned,surface. Ever noticed anything like that?

[David Weaver]

Coticules do that and a lot of the looser japanese naturals do it, too. I only have one coticule that doesn't, and it's a coticule that's hard enough that it doesn't release grit.

I don't know if it's a function of abrasive stuff rolling around or what, but it doesn't leave you with a surface that shows any prominent scratches. My guess is that it's loose grit rolling around.

Some of those stones cut finely enough that if used with a lot of water, they can be gentle enough on the edge that a linen can smooth out the edge and still shave comfortably (BBWs are just generally less abrasive dense in and usually with bigger garnet particles, but I know people have shaved off of them).

But the keenest edges are still those with a bright polish off of a stone that doesn't release grit. Though there have been discussions to the contrary in the past here, I'm not aware of any natural stone that will leave a hazy edge that can match the keenness of something like stu's 13k stone (which has a particle grading 0.73 microns and makes a super bright polish) or the shapton 30k (which is finer yet by a little bit). On edges where someone has taken a stone to clear water (if that's an unclear term to those not part of the shaving discussions, it just means no loose abrasive on a stone, just clear water on it and the assumption that it stays that way while shaprening) to approach that kind of sharpness (chinese stones, arkansas stones(oil instead of water), japanese stones), the edge will come up polished.

The BBW stones don't seem to have had a well documented past in razors as anything other than a backing for yellow coticule, but they are a decent prepolisher for natural stones and since the particles are fairly large, if any are loose (and it's likely just using the stone makes for loose ones), they'll give that finish that looks like someone has shot the edge with a thousand tiny shotgun shots. With the kind of pressure that one would use to sharpen tools, coticules don't impress much, especially for the price.

I guess coticules are bizarre in general, because of how finely they can be made to cut with light pressure (if they aren't too soft) despite the fact that the particles are fairly large.

The japanese naturals and the finest hone slates (eschers, etc) probably have the smallest particles of the natural stones, but even they will leave a cloudy surface on a slurry. I have read somewhere that the finest japanese naturals have particles in the 3-4 micron range, which seems accurate. A cloudy edge that isn't at least partially polished will show its lack of keenness if anyone tries to shave with it right off a stone with nothing but a light bare leather stropping. Some of us got caught up believing that in woodworking because you can't tell as easily when an edge is acceptably sharp vs. clean comfortable shave sharp on a hollow ground razor.

So, anyway, you can find that mottled surface when you start getting into softer natural stones that release grit, and it's usually an invitation to improve the edge (might still get a good edge with good vintage plain carbon steel, though).

[Mel Fulks]

Couldn't ask for better detail than that.Thanks. I like the edge for wood and it cuts fast.

[jamie shard]

They're a different kind of stone. At the risk of butchering what goes on with the stones, they all have some sort of silica based abrasive, but the novaculite stones (arkansas stones, etc) have or may have undergone a chemical reaction that slates haven't. That's as close as I can remember from the razor boards.

There are very hard slates, though, but none that I've used are quite as resistant to a scratch on a push stroke as a black or translucent stone. The one in johns picture (the black one) is fairly soft. The purple one at the beginning of this thread is hard. Though not exactly the same, the ozuku super hard japanese stones are also hard but fall short of black or translucent arkansas and can be scratched though deep gouging on any of the hardest slates or japanese stones would be really hard to do.

By the way, thanks for this info... Frankly, I had been thinking that my stone was a black arkansas and was pretty disappointed. I have a few translucent arkansas slips which are a joy to use, but I had been wondering about black. Now I'm really wondering!

[Brian Deakin]

[Brian Deakin]

[David Weaver]

That's awesome stuff Brian. Interesting that the raw material was free or close to it.

For anyone who hasn't seen a clog maker's fixture, there's one about 2:15 into this video:

http://vimeo.com/49031684

[Brian Deakin]

I purchased this stone on e bay in the United Kingdom for $90 or £56.00

On the box it reads Hard Arkansas oil stone. The box measures approximately 165mm wide x 65mm deep x 40mm high

regards Brian

[Paul McGee]

Hi guys - another Oz dweller.

I replied to a comment on our Ozzie forum here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/t...4/#post1495232

Originally Posted by chook
Absolutely. You might say "Nice looking chisel." But nobody ever says "What a beautiful oil stone."

And some old info ...

Cheers,
Paul McGee
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[David Weaver]

Love the picture of the rosy red washita!!