Man, I'd love to have some of those.Originally Posted by george wilson
Guest
Man, I'd love to have some of those.
Member
Heck, I'd be happy just to get some wood blanks that nice!
[OP]
Member
We worked out in the coldest time of year for 2 weeks,cutting down beech trees,and sawing 5000 bd. ft. of beech for the toolmaking program. Then,we hauled it all up into a tall attic space to dry for some years before we could use it. That's what "other artisans" have to do.
Last edited by george wilson; 12-13-2012 at 3:17 PM.
Contributor
Me too. I'd use the heck out of them!
Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.
In Memoriam
This chipbreaker information is quite the most exciting thing I have learned in a forty year career. I am quite clear that it was not common knowledge in England and I don't recall seeing it in the whole of Fine Woodworking.
My advice and practice was to set the C/B close for gnarly timbers but not that close!
Learning new stuff is very invigorating.
Best wishes,
David
Contributor
And speaking of of YOU being invigorated, I hope you are well sir, and thank you for adding to my skill and knowledge. -matt
Guest
David, considering that your sharpening and hand planing videos were the first things that I ever saw of woodworking, and that the very first edge I ever sharpened was excellently keen because of your methods, it was quite a highlight to see you drop in to the original thread and say "hey, that really works".
In arguing with warren several years ago, I had set the chipbreaker too close (dissatisfying surface quality and difficult to use) and too far away (too much tearout, no change). As you advised close for tough woods, and as I experimented with it even back then....we had no idea just how close we were. Years lost in my case, and planes purchased... whatever I could do to try to avoid sanding and scraping.
I am certain beginners can benefit from learning that very soon after learning it will not be fiddly at all, and at some point if they choose, they can point and shoot even their inexpensive planes at the marking lines in figured woods...and do it without the fear of tearout or overshooting.
Member
Good to see you around here again Mr. Charlesworth. I remember when he popped up during Dave W's thread last year and after some experimenting declared that it worked. Dave its pretty cool that you were able to teach DC something new.
[OP]
Member
Taught me something new also!!
Member
I'm going to say you guys have forgotten more about hand planes than I probably will ever know. I find this discussion interesting because for at least 20 years, if not longer, my understanding was to set the chip breaker close. A couple of months ago I watched an episode of Woodwright's shop that advised to hold the chip breaker back. I was feeling kind of poorly thinking I had been doing things wrong all these years. Good to hear/read that I wasn't off track.
Thanks for the info and take care.
Larry
Contributor
I recall feeling quite disappointed when I read Chris Schwarz' blog that there was no mention of those centrally involved in the discussions (primarily here, at WoodCentral and WoodNet). Indeed, there was a LOT of discussion and video and pictorials, efforts to test different parameters, and opinions one way and the other before CS posted on his blog. I read Chris' posts and enjoy his insights. He has contributed a great deal to the WW community, and readers look up to him. When he did not provide names and more information, the impression left is that these important others were unimportant to the conclusions reached. I do not think that was his intention, but it was taken that way when you read the subsequent postings on a few forums (e.g. "Chip breakers by Chris Schwarz" appeared on WoodNet).
As David (C) states, this was an exciting discovery. Notably, it seems not to have been a discovery for some, who claim it as old hat. I started a thread on the Australian Forum, posting some of the pictorial research I had done (and posted here as well), only to get comments from some "old timers" who were irritated by this, as if it were proof that the world of WW forums was populated by amateurs. This is a reason why I admire David so much - for someone of his stature to come out and openly admit he did not know and that this changed the way he thought, well that is just stupendous. Thank you again David.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Member
I have to wonder where all these people were for the hundreds of planing discussions I have read online. I had never seen the chipbreaker recommended as a tool for reducing tearout once. I'm a beginner, and mostly a lurker on forums. I have no doubt about other's knowledge and experience about woodworking and that there are people out there that have been properly using their chipbreakers for decades, but it feel a bit disingenuous that they are all coming out of the woodwork now. I think David's article and the associated research behind it really did do something great for amateurs like me.
Member
Well, when it comes to hand planes, I don't know if I am properly using anything and would be the last person to offer advise as I am not qualified. My comment was intended only to thank everyone for this information. I read about holding chip breakers close in something like Woodsmith or Shop Notes and I will admit I don't have the exact issue date. It was just another article about tuning up a hand plane and the chip breaker thing stuck with me. As I said, a TV show that advised to hold the chip breaker back kind of threw me for a loop. There was no intent on my part to take away from the research and findings from David or anyone else here. If I did that, then my comment was poorly worded.
Guest
I didn't see it as such. When we first started talking about it, I think I said to Bill that despite nobody speaking up on behalf of warren, we'd probably find a bunch of people who legitimately said "oh yeah, I do that already".
Warren's comment (be able to plane everything straight through with no tearout) was the standard I was looking for, because it suggests you can smooth quickly and keep dimensioned wood flat. I also wanted to be able to do it with a thick shaving (speed also).
I offended a few people initially when I finally had firm thoughts on exactly how to set the cap iron (after the initial excitement of setting it really close all the time wears off). They were offended because I said the same thing warren says when they mentioned that "they know how to use a cap iron, but they go to scraping or a high angle plane when the wood gets difficult". If it's not working, then it's no set up properly.
Derek's comments are the only ones that are likely legitimate with that, because he's working different stuff than we are here, but what we work in the US in general is handled easily by a properly set double iron with or against the grain (just not directly across the grain). But I did offend others, which wasn't my intention. Oh well. What was my intention was to get people to:
1) see the genius of the bailey plane design with the original stock parts. I used to believe a thick iron made a huge difference, and that the chipbreakers available with premium irons were an improvement - the latter are definitely not.
2) to realize that if they had a tight budget, they could use their stock bailey planes for anything that any bench plane can be used for, and in this case, it's as easy or easier to learn it than it is to figure out what premium plane you'd want to have.
3) well.... and to crack the code into something that can be communicated. Warren won a planing competition at WIA, which I thought was a quality competition - against multi-thousand dollar planes. It turned out it was a speed competition, but I didn't find that out until later. It bothered me when I thought I had come up with a perfect idea for a pair of planes to use when the wood's not perfect - single iron infills with tight mouths, one at 55 degrees and one at 45, that I thought warren had beaten the best of those types of planes for quality in a contest...and with a plane that would cost about $30.
Anyway, no offense. It's all part of reality, when you see something that works, you know there will have been someone else (or possibly a lot of people) who figured it out long before you did.
[OP]
Member
David,you are aware that in the late 18th.C.,double irons were being made in Philadelphia? Of course,without the adjusting mechanisms,but a perfectly effective chip breaker. From the many old plane irons we have seen in the museum,they were very often ground on the back of the blade to make a steeper cutting angle. I wonder how many craftsmen even back then really understood how to use the chip breaker? Not many,I think,as it was a new invention at the time.
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