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Thread: A chip breaker reminder

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Stanford View Post
    If I'm misunderstanding the process ...
    Yep, it's not that difficult and there's no "tedious progression". I personally use a single iron jack, followed by a double iron jointer or the panel plane set coarse (both have the cap iron so it just straightens out the thickest chips I'd make with it), and the smoother is probably set at two sheets of paper, where it will also straighten out the thickest chip it would have to cut (5 or six thousandths?)

    If it takes an extra 10 or 20 seconds to set the cap iron (set once, not constantly reset it), the time spent is easily offset by not having to fart around at glue seams or whatever what the planes, and not having to make extra smoother passes to remove tearout from the jointer / panel plane.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Yep, it's not that difficult and there's no "tedious progression". I personally use a single iron jack, followed by a double iron jointer or the panel plane set coarse (both have the cap iron so it just straightens out the thickest chips I'd make with it), and the smoother is probably set at two sheets of paper, where it will also straighten out the thickest chip it would have to cut (5 or six thousandths?)

    If it takes an extra 10 or 20 seconds to set the cap iron (set once, not constantly reset it), the time spent is easily offset by not having to fart around at glue seams or whatever what the planes, and not having to make extra smoother passes to remove tearout from the jointer / panel plane.
    A jack, then jointer/fore set coarse, then smoother set relatively coarse (two sheets of paper; my right elbow is hurting already) then pop the unit out and reset the capiron (you nailing that just right every time, in every species? Better man than me) and then go at it some more.

    This is a tedious progression IMO - three different planes in descending level of coarseness with the third plane used having the chipbreaker/iron relationship reset at the end of the process. Four different settings - Jack coarse, jointer/fore coarse, smoother coarse; smoother reset fine. I frankly can't imagine a more tedious (if not physically exhausting) routine. This must be the Schwarz world we all live in now. Not sure.

    I think I'd end up with a whole lot of under-planned-thickness material if I followed your routine. Anybody else planing to a finish line besides me? Please, raise your hand!

    Glue seams? Gracious, didn't the jack remove all evidence of those? Not getting your meaning on that - are you speaking of panel glue ups?

    This is the blissful ignorance I spoke about. Happy to have it with regard to all of this!

    To each his own for sure. But Wow!
    Last edited by Charlie Stanford; 12-15-2012 at 8:49 AM.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Stanford View Post
    The super-fine settings made for an interesting afternoon's diversion for me. That was about it. They work (no doubt) but the surface has to be really homogenous in the first place, almost to a machine-like standard, I rarely achieve that to be honest.

    I definitely do not go through a tedious progression of planes and cap iron settings that culminate in the super-tight settings mentioned in the articles. I wonder who really does, in the "post-Kawai" (sp?) world we now supposedly live in. If the end result of all of this is supposed to look like what you get when you hand plane light machine marks out of stock that has otherwise been competently processed on jointer and planer I can reliably be counted out. If I'm misunderstanding the process then ignorance is bliss.

    I'm typically back to around a 64th (I'd guess), as David Barnett mentioned in his post quoting an old FW article. For me, this pretty much is the "close as you can get it" recommendation to be found in several books by British authors (not sure what Charlesworth was looking for, perhaps Hayward providing a specific measurement in thousandths of an inch). Furthermore, I would add "reasonably" after the word "can" as a lousy two cent contribution to the discussion.

    Can it be gotten closer? Sure, with some squinting and carrying on. But then that setting might not work as well on one species as it did on another. And then fiddling and faffing about ensue. I don't despise the scraper and I am on speaking terms with garnet sandpaper. 250 years or so ago I guess it would have been brick dust, loose grit of some sort, something lost to history, a shop secret, or nothing. Not worried about it.


    I am not entirely sure what you mean with the surface having to be really homogenous. This is especially a great technique for your jointer and tryplane with a somewhat wider setting. You won't probably prevent all tearout, but it's a lot better then moving the capiron out of the way.

    In reallity it's not difficult to go down to something 0.2mm (1/128th). Well, as far as I can meassure that. Meassuring isn't needed though. You look at the light reflected and just push the capiron slowly forward until the gleaming line is very small. When planing you can see if the shavings come out nice and straight and if the planing is effective in preventing tearout. Adjust as neccesary. And yes that means a bit of faffing around. There is definitely a learning curve involved, but it's never bad for you to learn something new.

    Usually it's not neccessary to go all the way to the finest setting. When the wood is cooperative and doesn't tend to tear out with the usual precautions like planing with the grain and a sharp blade, I will shoot also for something like 1/64th in a smoother. A bit of cumbersome grain will tearout, but not nearly as deep. When you encounter such a spot you can either hit it with a scraper or faff around a bit with the chipbreaker to get a better result.

    So, on a rough sawn board you probaly start with a jack across the grain to remove any cup and wind. Then straighten the board up with a tryplane with the capiron around 1/64th or so and shavings a bit thinner then that. That will probably give you an excellent result allready, but you could choose to go after it with a smoothing plane with a 1/128th setting.

  4. #49
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    Some one in the first thread David started about chip breakers,suggest holding the blade vertically against a piece if soft wood hard against it,and lowering the chip breaker to meet the wood,then tightening. That would produce a very close to the edge setting (provided your chip breaker didn't slip over the cutting edge).

  5. #50
    Hmm, I see you have allready made up your mind, Charlie.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Yes, and with all due respect, jamming backsaws repeatedly in cuts,and whamming nice,new Wentzloff rip saws into the floor a few times while sawing vertically seated on a low "sawing bench" can be included in "so it goes" So can hammering a nail into a tired little noodley(sp?) puddle instead of a proper,straight across the grain clinch,with a point bent down to staple into the wood.
    Hmm - I suspect that the purpose of Roy's show might need to be re-stated: entertainment. He'd be the first to tell us this. Roy (and Chris) are both excellent, careful craftsman. But Roy's style on his show is quite different; he often plays dumb on a subject that he knows more about than his guest. But if the show was just Roy regurgitating his knowledge, it'd certainly be educational, but awfully boring.

    I give Roy a great deal of credit for understanding that. Same with Chris S.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Stanford View Post
    A jack, then jointer/fore set coarse, then smoother set relatively coarse (two sheets of paper) then pop the unit out and reset the capiron (you nailing that just right every time, in every species? Better man than me) and then go at it some more.

    This is a tedious progression IMO - three different planes in descending level of coarseness with the third plane used having the chipbreaker/iron relationship reset in the midst of the process. Four different settings - Jack coarse, jointer/fore coarse, smoother coarse; smoother reset fine. I frankly can't imagine a more tedious routine. This must be the Schwarz world we all live in now? Not sure.

    Glue seams? Gracious, didn't the jack remove all evidence of those? Not getting your meaning on that - are speaking of panel glue ups?

    This is the blissful ignorance I spoke about. Happy to have it with regard to all of this!
    That summary just makes no sense to me. I set the planes once each time I sharpen them. I haven't had the tearout I had before (my bench is against the wall more or less, i like to be able to plane from the same side), and I doubt you would have any, either. There's no need to reset the smoother. 2 sheets of paper is about 8 thousandths, you're very unlikely to get tearout at that setting, there is no robotic changing of the cap iron every time you change the woods you're working on. What works on cherry works, works on oak, works on curly maple and it shouldn't need to be so close that it bruises pine.

    Glue seams, plane glue ups. I'm not talking about leveling the seam, I'm talking about taking a rank cut with a jointer when you're flattening the panel and one board has a little bit of curl or something and the other doesn't. We used to hear all of these explanations about how it was historically correct to worm a small plane all over the place and spot smooth. It may be, but I have no interest in it, and I don't want to throw away wood just because I don't have an ideal seam when I'm at my last two boards for a project.

    And I absolutely hate scraping cherry and/or sanding cherry, which is what I use the most. It looks terrible.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    Hmm, I see you have allready made up your mind, Charlie.
    Seems to be the case. Lots of straw scenarios that seem more contrived than genuine.

  9. #54
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    Charlie, with respect, I don't understand what you are talking about. Are you referring to glue ups, or boards coming off a thickness plane/jointer?

    Dave is talking about going from rough stock to flat and smooth. If you're working from rough stock you generally want three planes to get from rough to flat, to smooth. This isn't just CS's teaching - Read any old text, ask anyone who preps stock from hand. Getting from rough to flat to smooth is far quicker if one uses planes that are set to take shavings as thick as possible for what you wnat to get done. Who said anything about 4 different settings? These planes generally stay setup for that level of coarseness - there is little to no resetting other than maybe a turn of the depth adjuster hear or there. That's the whole point. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote. Are you suggesting another way to go from rough to ready entirely by hand? Are you starting with S2S stock? I often do and is those cases, I typically skip the coarsest plane. Its just a medium-heavy set jointer followed by a smoother? I don't know know how to say this any other way, but instead of just disparaging other peoples suggestions, how about you add your advice. I mean that - if you have a better way how about you describe it to us.
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 12-15-2012 at 9:16 AM.

  10. #55
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    The show can be considered entertainment by some,I suppose. But,it is of a technical subject which I am sure has many,many newbies following. I keep taking up their cause. When I was a young teenager in Alaska(pretty void of the kind of instruction I wanted),there was no one to teach me to bend wood for guitar sides. I kept boiling them,and they kept wrinkling when drying. Had I had this show to watch,I'd have sucked up every scrap of learning I could. And,I haven't forgotten those early days of mine. It was uphill all the way. No books yet existed about guitar making. The first I ever saw was a book by A.P. Sharp. I was in college by then. And that builder was not a particularly good guitar maker. Some Italian guy(Marco Rocco,I think). Guitar making in England was sort of in its infancy at that time(about 1956) I saw the book in about 1959 or 60. A friend got it somewhere. I did learn a few very valuable things from the very thin little book,though. It REALLY helped. Just a scrap of knowledge: Bend sides around a hot iron,JUST THAT was SO valuable to me at that time. I'd been building solid bodies for a while to avoid side bending,after wasting a school year of attempts.

    Therefore,I always urge writers and other "teachers" to provide proper information. Otherwise,what is such a show really about? Folksy charm and green woodworking? (The folksy charm really HAS worked!!! Think about it!! A career of folksy charm!! That would have been much easier than wearing my eyes out on fine detail,for sure.)I also must add that the camera,from 10 feet away,hides a multitude of sins. But,I cannot consider seams so wide that the camera can see them at that distance as great craftsmanship. With all due respect,I won't include what the other craftsmen in Williamsburg thought of these goings on. The director liked the free publicity the museum got.

    Sorry,neither David or I live in "the Schwarz World". I've been at this when he was kicking the slats out of his crib(actually long before that: My daughter is 45).
    Last edited by george wilson; 12-15-2012 at 9:26 AM.

  11. #56
    I haven't been at it that long, but there is a drastic difference in the shows when someone like Peter Ross or Brian Boggs is on vs. Schwarz. Someone has to tell beginners what they're doing, I guess, and our discussions on here might be too esoteric in general. But I want to watch the guys with skill, the ones who inspire me to be able to work with the same accuracy and efficiency.

    Everyone wants something different, I guess. I rarely watch roy's show, but I do get to see it online when these discussions come up. I tried to find the nail clinching episode, but couldn't. At the same time, I don't know that I'd want to see it. It does make me curious to watch Roy work with planes and then have chris on. Roy seems to use the planes with more skill and rhythm.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post

    I tried to find the nail clinching episode, but couldn't.
    I think its this one. I was going check now, but for some reason its not loading on my computer at the moment.

    http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3010.html

  13. #58
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    I can't get youtube to work,but it was the "Tiny Toolbox" episode. I think I need to upload Adobe flash player,or something. Youtube seems to have changed lately. How about a folksy show on how to use your computer ????!!!!

    The way I clinch hand made nails is to tap the point of the nail(after it has been driven through the wood) over into a 90º bend. If I have a lot of them to do,or if the nail was made sloppily,I might keep a pair of pliers at the bench to bend them. Then,I hammer the nail over ,driving the bent tip into the wood. I keep all nails bent parallel to each other. They are unsightly enough as is,without making a mess out of them. I must say,I have an early 18th.C. blanket chest that has both properly and improperly clenched nails in the butterfly hinges. This is a Southern yellow pine chest,made by some back woods guy who was likely half drunk when he made it. Alcohol was the main source of pain relief in the period,and from the huge number of wine bottles found in Williamsburg's soil,it is pretty certain that a lot of work was done under the influence.
    Last edited by george wilson; 12-15-2012 at 9:55 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    I can't get youtube to work,but it was the "Tiny Toolbox" episode. I think I need to upload Adobe flash player,or something. Youtube seems to have changed lately. How about a folksy show on how to use your computer ????!!!!
    Yep that's the one. The link I posted is working for me now.

  15. #60
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    Peter Ross knows what he is doing (if he can get a word in edge ways!!) Peter was the former Master Blacksmith in the museum,in case someone doesn't know.


    His movements are quick,to the point,and exacting. As they said on Monty Python "No beating about the bush,or shilly shallying about" (close as I can recall)!!
    Last edited by george wilson; 12-15-2012 at 10:21 AM.

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