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Thread: A chip breaker reminder

  1. #61
    Yeah David, In a group that big there are sure to be some "good ones".

  2. #62
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    This is a very interesting conversation to be sure. I consider myself a newby in woodworking and an absolute boot in hand tools. I've only been doing the former about 6 years and the latter about 2. I have a lot to learn yet. My primary source of information is online resources like this one and written materials. I read voraciously into the topics. There are several schools of thought in several areas and sometimes it's hard to decide, on my limited budget and time, which direction to go. I do enjoy the experimentation process though and sometimes think this must have been what things were like when they first started figuring out iron planes and other techniques.
    I, too, hope for accurate information but also realize that some folks, like CS, present a lot of information from historical information they study. They also have access to a lot of the masters for information. Like anything though, and history itself is a good example, much of the craft has been handed down by word and only in recent times have things become more of a written word. Sometimes the word gets confused for whatever reason. A lot of times I see Moxon looked at. Much of the interpretations I've read about make sense, but what if Moxon was just an average woodworker with an above average access to the ability to create a book from his time? Who says he was the end all be all of his time. He just happens to have written a book that survived. He could have been the CS of his day with other masters bemoaning his work as that of a person who just regurgitates old information and sometimes off the mark at that.
    I appreciate all the work that CS does and the contributions of the experienced folks on these websites very much. I do, however, have the final word on what works for me. I think that's the point, that we must decide what we try and if it works. I think if someone were to put forth too much false info the BS flag would be thrown and they'd be discredited. Some of it does come back to those who can, do and those who can't teach. That's a little harsh but I think you get my point. CS is more of a historian than a WW'er sometimes it seems. He does what he loves though and makes a living doing it. Good for him. I plan to try the chip breaker on my #4 personally. Wish me luck. And thanks to everyone that brought this info to light.

  3. #63
    Chris does do a good job publishing. I like a lot of his publishing efforts as long as they are books written by someone else. And I don't mean that as a slight, I think it's perfectly fair to say I'd like a book written by an expert and edited/published by someone who is an expert at the latter.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Otherwise,what is such a show really about? Folksy charm and green woodworking? (The folksy charm really HAS worked!!! Think about it!! A career of folksy charm!!
    Actually, this is exactly how I view Roy's show - folksy charm and green woodworking. A large contrast in WW shows is "The Woodsmith Shop". I watch it, but it's heavily over-produced, and is geared toward a "how-to" from soup-to-nuts, with on-line content available to fill in any blanks. I'd hate to see Roy's show turn into the "how-to" format. And I'd think it would be nearly impossible for him to do anyway, the show's usually only 24 minutes long according to my DVR, and most of us that use handtools at a high level recognize that there's a tremendous amount of detail that is critical to the quality of the object produced that isn't covered, and couldn't be unless each project was spread out over 4 or more shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    That would have been much easier than wearing my eyes out on fine detail,for sure.)I also must add that the camera,from 10 feet away,hides a multitude of sins. But,I cannot consider seams so wide that the camera can see them at that distance as great craftsmanship.
    I doubt Roy would either, but I don't think that's the point. The point is to do a live demonstration in as short a time possible, and he usually has a finished example of whatever project is being discussed that exhibits far higher standards of craftmanship.



    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Sorry,neither David or I live in "the Schwarz World". I've been at this when he was kicking the slats out of his crib(actually long before that: My daughter is 45).
    Well yeah, George, but that's an impossible standard. If the criteria for being a woodworking author was being more experienced than 99% of the rest of the woodworking public, we would never have younger people willing to do the job. I'm -ahem- "more experienced" than a large number of my colleagues in the scientific field, but I don't tell them that their ideas or contributions aren't as good as mine because I'm older and more experienced.

  5. #65
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    It is the finished example if a piece of work that HAS the seams I refer to. He always has a finished piece,and spare parts ready to speed up the process. For example,the triangular,small table (Jacobean,IIRC),that has the 3 piece top like pie slices. There are very visible(from 10' away on camera) seams in the top. Obviously,I don't expect someone to produce a perfect piece of work in 24 minutes!! That would be silly!

    But,I need to lay off this subject before I get myself into trouble. I do challenge anyone to disprove any thing I have said about these things,though.

    Older has nothing to do with anything. We had an older Dutch cabinet maker when I first came to the museum. He was not creative in the least. All he made was block front desks which were entirely inappropriate for the Virginia area. He had a cutting list,and would go to the backup shop,and make himself a kit of parts,all dimensioned and planed. He'd bring them to the Anthony Hay cabinet shop,and cut the dovetails by hand,and the shell carvings and moldings. He was about 10% as good as I was,but always was holding the age and experience card over my head!! In his faltering English "These goot for nothing college boys don't know from none!" Well, except for my extracurricular hanging out with Will Reimann,I learned nothing of value to my career as a craftsman in college!!!! Everyone in town had warned me that I'd never manage to work near him,but I had no choice about being in a room connected to the cabinet shop. He was eventually put out in the backup shop to work out his last years where he was not a daily nuisance to others. He had actually gotten into a fist fight with someone some time ago. I don't know how it was that he was not fired,as that was a first time firing offense, Maybe it was off museum property with another museum employee.

    One time,he brought to my attention a desk he had made. The writing surface had sharp,clear thickness planer marks all over it. I mean,it was untouched by scraping or sanding. He moaned how he had scraped and sanded that surface,when any fool could see that he had just left it alone by mistake. When the finish went on(a few miserable coats of too thinned out shellac,no stain or filler),the planer marks shone out.

    I would NEVER,EVER have left those marks on. It would not have been hard to remove the cubby holes and re do it. But,he actually delivered it in that condition. It was extremely expensive,too. A prime example of getting away with something because of the ignorance of the customer being greater than the carelessness of the craftsman. That sort of thing happened a number of times.

    No,I don't use the age and experience angle card like that. You've got to have the goods to back it up,or I don't care how many years you've been at it. I can't even tell how many real old men came into the instrument shop and tried to find something to complain about. I think they were in reality unpleased with their own accomplishments,and tried to tear down what others had done.
    Last edited by george wilson; 12-15-2012 at 12:14 PM.

  6. #66
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    Here's a funny story about the Dutch cabinet maker. He had gone to Richmond with the director ,the assistant director,and the old English furniture conservator,Mr. Sims(who I really liked). They went into a restaurant for lunch. The Dutchman was apoplectic
    with the food that was served to him(really pitched a hissy!!!!) and,without warning,or permission,shoveled his food onto the plate of Mr. Sims!!

    He also had a basic spelling problem,and had a stack of mahogany in the maintenance area,which he labeled "English keep hands OF". I don't know if he hated the Nazis(who forced him to make wooden propellers),or the English more. Not funny,really. Mr. Sims was a good man. Always generous and very helpful. He brought me back a set of hollows and rounds from England for $75.00,and a VERY nice post vise. I'm sure it was 18th.C.. Someone I loaned it to was fired and SOLD it when he left town to work as a union rep.. On one of his shows,Roy showed Mr. Sims's old tool chest.His son had inherited it. When I knew Mr. Sims,his chisels were quite long. When Roy showed them,they were 3 or 4" long. His son was a real hippie,and a hack,and had ground them to death. His mother said to him: "There's nothing more disgusting than an aging hippie". Mr. Sims agreed!!
    Last edited by george wilson; 12-15-2012 at 12:32 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Peter Ross knows what he is doing (if he can get a word in edge ways!!) Peter was the former Master Blacksmith in the museum,in case someone doesn't know.


    His movements are quick,to the point,and exacting. As they said on Monty Python "No beating about the bush,or shilly shallying about" (close as I can recall)!!
    It might be said of Pete(r) that he does not waste a movement nor a word. And that's about the highest praise I can give someone.

  8. #68
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    Well,he CAN'T waste a word in that show. They are too hard to get in!!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    On one of his shows,Roy showed Mr. Sims's old tool chest.His son had inherited it. When I knew Mr. Sims,his chisels were quite long. When Roy showed them,they were 3 or 4" long. His son was a real hippie,and a hack,and had ground them to death. His mother said to him: "There's nothing more disgusting than an aging hippie". Mr. Sims agreed!!
    I've seen that chest and have used several of the tools in it. Just from examining and handling the tools it was apparent Mr. Simms had the eye and heart of a craftsman. There's a great story about how Roy came to acquire it. From what I was told it sounds like George's description of the son is spot-on.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Chris Griggs View Post
    Charlie, with respect, I don't understand what you are talking about. Are you referring to glue ups, or boards coming off a thickness plane/jointer?

    Dave is talking about going from rough stock to flat and smooth. If you're working from rough stock you generally want three planes to get from rough to flat, to smooth. This isn't just CS's teaching - Read any old text, ask anyone who preps stock from hand. Getting from rough to flat to smooth is far quicker if one uses planes that are set to take shavings as thick as possible for what you wnat to get done. Who said anything about 4 different settings? These planes generally stay setup for that level of coarseness - there is little to no resetting other than maybe a turn of the depth adjuster hear or there. That's the whole point. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote. Are you suggesting another way to go from rough to ready entirely by hand? Are you starting with S2S stock? I often do and is those cases, I typically skip the coarsest plane. Its just a medium-heavy set jointer followed by a smoother? I don't know know how to say this any other way, but instead of just disparaging other peoples suggestions, how about you add your advice. I mean that - if you have a better way how about you describe it to us.
    I rarely use even skip planed material.

    I need to see you guys on video doing this gyration down to planned thickness. I'm guessing, purely guessing, that if you needed a 7/8" thick board or something very close, several of you would be sweating bullets if you had to start with slightly fat 4/4 rough stock.

    Two planes - jointer or fore and then the smoother. Only thing changing would be cutter projection - turn of the thumb. If I'm getting out a short board then I'd use a jack.

    I get the stock flat first (a geometric concept) and then as smooth and clear (surface attributes) as it can be gotten in the room I have left to my planned thickness (depending on what part is being produced). If thickness can be variable, and I need to, I keep planing for appearance.

    On tabletops for instance I worry about twist removal and general flattening only on the side that will register to the aprons. I let everything else run out to the show side - a little out of shape won't usually be terribly noticeable. Trying to register the twisted side to the apron would pull the undercarriage into twist potentially causing lots of problems. I would plane and treat that show surface for appearance and not geometry.

    I know of no other way to do it without wasting material or starting with thicker stock than is really necessary which, again, is wasteful.

    I'M HAPPY TO BE ENLIGHTENED ON THIS, SO PLEASE DO!

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Charlie Stanford; 12-15-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  11. #71
    Roy is deferential to his guests,seems strange on television ,but good manners anyway.

  12. #72
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    Charlie,they hand plane their wood in the Anthony Hay cabinet shop every day. Unlike in the distant past,when things were much more relaxed about authenticity,their furniture is completely hand made.

    Jason,I had to put up with Mr. Sim's son for several months when the director was asked by a vice president to give him a "second chance" after he was fired. It was nearly a nightmare trying to keep him right. He'd be found wearing a costume with red sneakers,hanging from an overhead shelf while interpreting to visitors,wearing incredibly wrinkled shirts because he didn't know to take them out of the dryer hot and hang them. It went on WAY to long. He had REALLY pornographic books in the break room I had to order him to take home. He simply could not understand why. We had women ticket takers going up there. Although I reported many of his antics,the director was afraid to fire him because a vice president had asked him to hire the guy. Finally,he said the wrong thing to a group led by a friend of the president(of the museum). He was ordered instantly fired. I could not be in 2 shops at once,and this guy required constant supervision. He made a stand up desk out of pine,that was so badly made that the trade shop it was made for refused to accept it.
    Last edited by george wilson; 12-15-2012 at 1:40 PM.

  13. #73
    Charlie, you're always demanding other people to show something, but you never show anything of yours. Why don't you start a post showing something or write an article?

  14. #74
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    Charlie it seems that what you are describing is no different than what anyone else is doing, but that you are just using a the same plane for your coarsest work and your somewhat less coarse flattening. Certainly a perfectly valid approach, I believe Alan Peters used one plane, a No. 7, for just about everything.

    I'm not sure what you mean by crazy gyration. Its one additional plane setup to take heavier shavings than a jointer. Its also currently and historically a very standard practice. Its has a narrower blade so its easier to push, and its lighter. The whole reason to use say a jack first is to avoid the sweating bullets. If I need to get a thick 4/4 board down to 7/8, I'll use the jack to get it closer first. This also makes it quicker to remove worst of any cupping or twisting. If I've already flattened one side and have 1/8-1/4 of inch to take off the other to bring it to thickness, I'm going to get as close to the gauge line as I can safely with my coarsest tool. I'm not sure how its easier to do that with a heavier plane, I personally have no desire to remove a 1/4" of material with an 8 to 10 pound plane. Don't assume that this means I or anyone else is just blindly going to town on a bored with the coarsest plane possible, you plane as much is as necessary, and obviously leave enough so that you can get the piece truly flat with the jointer and not overshoot the line. If the board is flat enough or close enough to the line that it doesn't need the coareley set plane be it a jack or fore plane than that plane doesn't get used. I don't imagine anyone regularly preps stock by hand is planing away material or wasting time and energy just to go through a sequence of planing.

    As far as the CB is concerned. You seem to be assuming that this something that is adjusted every time the thickness of cut it adjusted. The reality is experience tells you where it works best for ones work the majority of the time and that's where it stays. It is one aspect of plane setup that can help to get a good end result. Much like setting the mouth of a plane you find the spot where it works best for the majority of your work and leave it that way the vast a majority of the time.

    If your 2 plane approach works for you that's great. I'm not going to say it doesn't or belittle it in any way, but that doesn't mean that other peoples approaches are less valid. If you really feel like your approach is objectively better, than by all means feel free to post a video or your process. I'll happily watch it and see if I can learn something from it.

  15. #75
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    Spent some time prepping some birdseye today for a smallbox. This stuff is supposed to be really difficult to smooth w/o tearout right? Wait, you need a high end plane with a high bed/angle of attack to plane this stuff right? Wait, you need a crazy tight plane mouth right? Wait, you can only take .001" thick or less shavings when planing this stuff right? Wrong!

    IMG_1994.jpg IMG_1995.jpg

    Don't get me wrong. I LOVE my nice new planes.... but I also love that my old Stanley (a type 18 or 19 so not even the best of them) can do anything I ever need a smooth plane to do. No the shavings included in the shot are not to show off how thin they are.... its just the opposite.

    THANK YOU MR. WEAVER!

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