Solar electric...what's up with that?

[Rick Potter]

I told a salesman he could come over and pitch his solar electric system. Can anyone give me some real world advice?

Is it worthwhile? Do you ever make back your investment? What type or brand is considered the best or most efficient? What questions should I ask? Do they need maintenence, like cleaning? Buy or lease?

Sorry for the shotgun approach, but I know very little about the real world viability of a solar electric system. Years ago I went for a solar water heater, and it never paid for itself before becoming problematical.

I do have a roof that is large enough and situated well for solar panels, and I live in SoCal.

Thanks,
Rick Potter

[Jim Matthews]

SolarAmerica pitched their product to me.

It's important to note two things:
the ROI in years and if your utility pays you for the extra power you generated.
Massachusetts has "net metering" so I only get rebates equal to my usage.

If you're running an airconditioner, it may suit your plans to check your actual consumption.
My total electric consumption, for a full year, is less than $1200. It didn't make a strong case.

If I owned an EV for daily driving, I would reconsider the installation.
It just doesn't make dollars and sense to spend nearly $55,000 (including the retail price of the car)
to drive the 30 miles I travel, daily.

Your situation should consider your total electric consumption, and the value of any power you generate.
Compare how long it takes to break even (ROI) to the amount of time you hope to spend in your home.

Projected payoff for the array on my roof (considerably further North than yours) was 14 years.
It's not the risk for rain infiltration over this period to install at the current cost for electricity.

There is also some sort of "coupon" affiliated with Carbon emissions regulation with utilities that can be sold off by the homeowner
to offset the cost of installation. It might also make you feel good to contribute in this manner.

http://www.dsireusa.org/solar/solarpolicyguide/?id=13


I would be more inclined to consider a retrofit of an air conditioner with an integrated solar array.
The idea is clever - sunshine is most abundant when the air conditioner is most in demand.

Let the sun help do some of the cooling for you...

http://www.lennox.com/solar-solutions/

[Lee Schierer]

Solar panels aren't for every one. A friend of mine did a panel for his house in eastern PA and he is doing well with the pay back. However, he got in when the subsidies were at their highest so he only paid for about 40% of the cost.

We have an all electric house and I considered getting solar panels, but in the decided not to. The sales people show the pay back to relatively quick, but that is only if you have the cash to pay for the system out right. If you have to borrow to pay for the system, then the pay back gets pushed out pretty far. There used to be some federal and state programs that paid up to 50% of the system cost which helped tremendously, but those are pretty much gone now. In the end I was looking at at least a 15 year break even which would have made me 75 years old. I also wasn't too keen on erecting a billboard in my back yard. Instead we upgraded our geothermal heating system to be a heating/cooling system with a more modern unit. It dropped our electrical usage about 10% and will pay off in less than five years. Plus we were able to cool our house the first summer at a constant 74 degrees using the same kilowatts we had used the previous summer running fans and a dehumidifier.

[glenn bradley]

My buddy did it. Family of 5 with a normal electric bill of $400 to $600 per month through the summer. The 20 year lease of the solar is $280 per month plus he is generating enough juice to get a credit from the utility as opposed to a bill. Once the credit reaches a certain level, he must pay the extra to the solar lessor(?). Read your contract . . . .

There is a formula to see if your current average monthly will make you a good candidate. Cheesy sales guys will try to push you on future rising costs of electricity. I would steer clear of these guys. The technology can sell itself based on your current costs and the nature of the lease / payback contract. Make sure you understand what you are signing up for. As in all trendy technologies, there are the solid players and then there are the bottom feeders who were selling aluminum siding, fire-proof tuxedos or 50 year paint last summer.

[Joe Angrisani]

.....with a normal electric bill of $400 to $600 per month.....

Holy kilowatts, Batman! That's insane.

[Moses Yoder]

My buddy did it. Family of 5 with a normal electric bill of $400 to $600 per month through the summer. The 20 year lease of the solar is $280 per month plus he is generating enough juice to get a credit from the utility as opposed to a bill. Once the credit reaches a certain level, he must pay the extra to the solar lessor(?). Read your contract . . . .

There is a formula to see if your current average monthly will make you a good candidate. Cheesy sales guys will try to push you on future rising costs of electricity. I would steer clear of these guys. The technology can sell itself based on your current costs and the nature of the lease / payback contract. Make sure you understand what you are signing up for. As in all trendy technologies, there are the solid players and then there are the bottom feeders who were selling aluminum siding, fire-proof tuxedos or 50 year paint last summer.

We live as a family of 4 and have an electric bill of around $120 per month. We use propane for furnace and stove, electric hot water, window air upstairs and downstairs. Why in the world would you have an electric bill of $400 - $600 per month? Just wondering. We watch a movie every night on a 36" screen, two laptops and a desktop, telephones for each member, I-pods, Kindle, cameras, lighting, $120 per month.

[Todd Burch]

We live as a family of 4 and have an electric bill of around $120 per month. We use propane for furnace and stove, electric hot water, window air upstairs and downstairs. Why in the world would you have an electric bill of $400 - $600 per month? Just wondering. We watch a movie every night on a 36" screen, two laptops and a desktop, telephones for each member, I-pods, Kindle, cameras, lighting, $120 per month.

LOL

Family of 2 here, we balance our bill over the year and we pay $475/month. 3600 sf 2-story house, swimming pool, workshop that gets used a lot. Natural gas heat, gas hot water, gas dryer.

The primary difference will be the location - southeast Texas. Those summer bills remind us of where we live all year round. This house was built in 2001, and is not near as well insulated as my last house that was built in 1969 and used R5.6 in the walls.

[Rick Potter]

Well, I just signed up for solar.

I found out a neighbor had a solar system installed 2 years ago, and asked him about it. Turns out he is a retired electrical engineer, and interviewed 10 different solar companies before deciding on one. I told him I was not interested in leasing, and he told me he felt the same, he just wanted to pay for it and have it done with no payments. Well, he ended up leasing, and I followed suit.

What I did is kind of a hybrid deal. The good thing about leasing is that you get in for little down and a 20 year contract for a guaranteed level of efficiency, with all maintenance and repairs included. The bad thing about leasing is that you are paying for 20 years, which basically means you are paying interest on the initial cost for 20 years, and the leasing company gets any rebates and payments for surplus energy you may produce. If you buy, you are responsible for any maintenance and repairs, and the initial price is more than the initial price for leasing, not quite sure why, but two companies told me the same thing. You get to keep rebates and surplus energy.

So.........I went for the hybrid deal, it's a lease, 20 years including all maintenance and repairs etc, but I am paying for the whole 20 year lease immediately. This saves me all that interest, they get the rebates, I get the surplus. My net cost is 26% less than buying it outright, and my payback will be in 4 1/2 years.

I got a system that should cover about 98% of my total usage for the year or better. We figured this on this years bills which, as I said earlier, were WAY up because of the extra family living here for 5 months. I am getting 46 panels, and I have to put them on two roofs, which are situated great for exposure. It also includes a main panel upgrade to 200 amps.

I found out that there are different efficiency ratings on panels, even through the same manufacturer, kind of like a 3HP or 5HP table saw. The ones I got were 140 watts each, not the highest, but pretty good. The inverter is another big deal. Older style inverters are used with the panels wired in series, so if one panel goes bad, it slows down the whole system. The newer types, which I am getting, have panels which each have their own built in micro inverter. If one goes bad, it does not affect the others.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. At the end of the 20 year lease, what happens? Well, the contract says that if they choose not to remove the system, and I do not ask them to remove it, they will convey the system to me at no cost. Note that the panels and the inverters are guaranteed to produce 80% of their original power for 25 years. As the salesman says, "do you think the company is going to spend money to remove and sell or dispose of a 20 year old system?" I also have the option to purchase the power from the system for another 5 years at 6 cents per kw. if they do decide to remove it after all.

Now we wait for their engineer to come and make sure what I signed up for will work on my house. If not, we renegotiate.

Rick Potter

PS: Interesting facts: The system has it's own Edison meter, that keeps track of what you produce and how much goes back into the grid. It shuts down in a blackout, or line down situation so an Edison employee won't get shocked by my juice when the grid is supposed to be off. Edison has a habit of waiting about 9 weeks after the system is installed and approved before they allow you to turn it on. You decide...are they that far behind, or do you think they are squeezing some extra weeks out of you before you go rogue? My 20 year contract starts when it's turned on.

[michael skehan]

Now we wait for their engineer to come and make sure what I signed up for will work on my house. If not, we renegotiate.

Has anyone discussed the weight you're putting on your roof? If structural reinforcement is required, was that included within the solar companies analysis?

[Rick Potter]

Good question Michael,

When the engineer gets here Monday, I will be sure to ask him. I am not too worried about it because the old part of the roof that gets panels used to have a tile roof, and is now comp. The new part of the roof which gets most of the panels is new, and we built it pretty strong, above code for tile, even though it has comp.

Preshan,
I can tell you why your system goes off in a blackout. Here, at least, it is an Edison requirement. They don't want it feeding into their system when they may be working on it. Zap!

Rick Potter

[Mike Henderson]

I'm looking into solar electric right now, also. The problem is that we don't use much electricity except for a couple of months in the summer so what I'm looking at is a small system that will generate excess electricity during the year except for those summer months. And if your electricity charges are like mine, you're on a tiered system and electricity costs per kWh are really high in those higher tiers (tier 4 costs are $0.29/kWh and tier 5 costs are $0.33/kWh - that adds up pretty quickly). The solar guy tells me that we should change to "time of day" metering if we go solar because the highest charges are during the time when you're generating the most electricity.

I haven't got far enough to know if it makes sense yet but I should have a financial analysis in a few days. There's still a federal tax credit for solar but the CA rebates are pretty much gone.

Mike

[Kevin Bourque]

It's a great idea when govt. subsidies are helping pay for it.

[Jerry Thompson]

Kevin;

Gernment subsidies is my money along with millions of other taxpayers. If solar power is such a good deal it would not have to use the people's taxes to promote it. The free enterprize/captilist system would be all over it if it were financally feasable.

[Shawn Pixley]

In my opinion, the way to look at this holistically is create a Montecarlo model on costs and correlation to energy prices etc. We performed one of these at my company a number of years ago (we had a number of blackouts, and electricity shoratges in SoCal) regarding cogeneration. When examining the various scenarios, there was payback when electricity and natural gas prices moved roughly equivelantly. If they didn't have correlated change in pricing, it was either incredibly favorable or negative.

The other aspect of this was what was the cost to remain connected to the grid? We could generate enough electricity to be self sufficient. But the fees to remain connected to the grid, negated most if not all savings under most scenarios.

The last major factor was the cost of money you assumed in the model. This is of course a simple equation dpending upon how you fund the project (borrow money or pay cash).

The above relate to the solar situation this way. In Southern California where I live. Most of our electricity generation is from natural gas turbines. We have tiered rate structure (the more you use the higher the rate per KWH) to encourage consumption (a good thing in my opinion). If you over-generate, they won't be writing you any checks. So the most probable scenario where it makes sense is to provide enough capacity to keep you in the lowest of the tier structures consistantly. It also helps if you use more daytime vs nightime. If one were to have an electric car and charge during the day from solar, that scenario might be very favorable. We use on average 27.93 kWh per day. That throws us into tier four ($0.29/kWh). If i could offset demand to stay below a tier three rate, i can reduce my bill by $121/mo (~67%). We conserve quite a bit and don't have AC so we are not the best candidates right now. I do have an ideal roof for solar though. Some of my employees have ~$1500/mo bills in the summer from swimming pools and AC. For them, solar might make a great deal of sense.

There are also companies that approach you to install the photovoltaic cells at their cost on your roof. You then would pay them for the electicity the PV array provides. Presumably, they disconnect you from the grid.

[Mike Henderson]

I realize I'm posting in an old thread but I want to give an update.

My wife and I decided to go ahead and install a solar electric system, even though our electricity usage is fairly low - she really likes to be as green as possible. We put up a 14 panel system, with a maximum generating capacity of 3KW (but the peak generated has been about 2.6KW). Right now, it's generating about 18KWh a day, when we have cloudless days. I've noticed a gradual increase in the amount generated as the days get longer. On a cloudy day that could fall to 8KWh and would probably go lower on a really cloudy, rainy day.

The surprise is that we're generating more electricity than we use. I've had days when our net usage is as much as -9KWh, but my average since March 11 (when things went live) is -4KWh per day. I need to build up a cushion because in August and September I know I'll use a lot more than I generate with the A/C on.

I'm on a "net metering plan" which means that I only settle up with the power company once per year, although I get a "bill" each month to let me know what my cost status is. If I was accumulating a big obligation (meaning I'd owe a lot of money) I can make monthly payments - but I don't have to pay until the end of the year. If we wind up with the power company owing us money, they will pay us or roll over the credit to the next year.

I have no idea how long it will take to pay for the system (I bought it outright) but I'm sure it will be somewhere around ten years. The system has a 20 year warrantee on it, but I expect it to last longer than that. Analyzing the return requires you to make estimates on what electricity will cost in the future. Putting in the system isolates me from future cost increases - and if I can generate more power (I guess the proper term is energy) than I use, I'll be rooting for large increase in the cost of power. Ah, capitalism, it all depends on what side of the equation you're on

Mike