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Thread: High Speed Internet...point of diminishing returns?

  1. #1
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    High Speed Internet...point of diminishing returns?

    We're rapidly racing from the bottom toward the top for high speed internet access in our neighborhood. This time last year the only options were dialup which wouldn't connect over about 12K due to noisy phone lines, satellite, or a 3G card from a cell company. Last fall we got DSL and rocketed to 6x1, really more like 3-5/800k depending on the time of day. A month or so ago I got word that we were getting cable this summer and saw the first sign 2 weeks ago when the crew came through measuring poles and wire heights in my yard. We are probably about 4-5 months away from being able to sign up based on the schedule upper management shared with me. (Things are really looking up here on all fronts--last month "our" Kroger got the first Starbucks in our county and I saw a house nearby this evening with a SOLD sign! )

    The provider offers numerous packages ranging from 6x1 for $35/mo to 110x5 $180/mo. All have caps, ranging from 200GB to 1000GB The latter is a little over budget, though for two years that's actually about what we paid for 3G service! For $89 you can get 40x4 service with a 400GB cap which I kind of see as the max budget (because that's the most my employer will pay under the home office budget.)

    This has me thinking--where does HSI speed really reach the point of diminish returns (speaking today only--not predicting the future?) Even with our current DSL I really don't notice issues with VOIP on services like GotoMeeting or Skype, or really any issues with Amazon Prime streaming, though we are probably not streaming at full HD.


  2. #2
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    Matt, we find that we stream HD movies frequently through Netflix and really enjoy the service. We now pretty much have the whole shebang, VOIP, Internet, digital HD TV and now home security with live camera. I would think that for most folks, streaming HD would put the most demand on your available bandwidth. We have Comcast and typically get 20 mbps download and see no problem with streaming. I don't know how far we could decrease the speed and still get that level of service. I would think that 6 mbps ought to do it, if you can pull that bandwidth consistently. You might ask your provider their recommendation for your needs.

  3. #3
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    What do you use the internet for? Is there a multi-player on-line gamer in the house?

    If there are no gamers, you only are doing VOIP on one connection at a time, and you don't need to download huge files in a short amount of time, the 6/1Mb is probably all you are using. Don't assume the 6/1 Cable will work as well as the DSL and if it has a cap, then that probably means you should stick with what you have. I would be much more concerned about latency, how close the provider connects to the major backbones, and how fault tolerant their systems are. If the DSL comes from your local Telco, it is likely better than a cable TV provider. Companies like Verizon are the devil but most cable providers are worse.

    Start by running a test on download speed like speedtest.speakeasy.net. Run the advanced test and make sure you have Java so you can run the advanced tests packet loss, latency, and jitter. Run it from different parts of the country to get an idea how well your provider connects you to the backbone.

    I see another post was added about streaming HD. That needs about 1 Mb download speed.
    Last edited by Greg R Bradley; 03-29-2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: add last sentence

  4. #4
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    Home use is some (growing) streaming, general web surfing, and a little remote access for security cameras, a web thermostat in my shop, and rare remote file access via vpn. I work from home but other than an occasional large file transfer to grab a database or virtual machine don't actually do a ton of bandwidth-intensive stuff. Lots of remote desktop, web meetings, etc. My concern with the DSL provider is the fragile infrastructure. We've had major phone issues every few years--I can live without phone--actually I have been for 4 months since I've had my office line forwarded to my cell since December. Internet is more important. I don't really hear a ton of complaints about the company that's coming. And the caps are 6-33 times what we currently use (we use around 30GB/mo today.)

    I'm not really looking for specific recommendations for my needs, thinking more in general terms for the average household.


  5. #5
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    If the infrastructure on the existing DSL is fragile, then that changes everything. I thought I recalled from a previous post that they had brought fiber to a nearby DSLAM and then you had ADSL over copper for a short distance. Is there a concern that the reliability is not "fixed"?

    New infrastructure tends to be better than old but cable tends to be designed for the reliability requirements of TV and DSL is designed for the requirements of telephones. Telephones are also fixed faster.

    Some of the silly download speeds just amaze me. I manage the technology for a good sized construction company that deals in huge volumes of data. We have several $1K scanners, a $8K scanner, and a large $28K scanner and routinely email and ftp files of 100Mb. When we were able to get FIOS, I signed up for 35/35 even though 150/35 was available. It is simply irrelevant even with a half million dollars of computer equipment in a business. What is important is two other internet providers for fault tolerance since a lack of internet means that GPS controlled vehicles don't know where to go, payroll data is not transferred from field scanners, etc. etc. if we lose connectivity.

  6. #6
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    I know FiOS is not an option but we have the slowest package (SWMBO DETESTS Comcast). Nominally 15/5, if you have dual or triple play they seem to throw in an extra 10 Mb./sec so 25/5. I haven't done hi-dif streaming but the only downloads that 'fill the pipe' are linux distros from MIT or U of Md. 700+MB. in about 3 minutes. So yeah, except for multiple users, something like 10 Mb./sec. down seems like enough.

  7. #7
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    Matt, I'm moving to the country, and last year when I looked, about the only thing available was 3mbps wireless. Yesterday, I signed up with Hughesnet for a 15 mbps down/ 2mbps up plan, (satellite, $110/month) with a 40GB cap. I felt the cap was a little low, so I checked with comcast (cable) for my recent usage. Dec was 36GB, Jan was 30GB, Feb was 18GB and March will be around 14GB, so now I'm comfortable with the 40GB cap. If I do exceed it, I can top it off for $8. I work from home, so high speed is a must have. And, unlike you, my employer will not reimburse me.

  8. #8
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    I just love all the geeks who think Americans should have a minimum of 100 megabit to the home with 1 Gigabit being better. I think even 100 megabit is way overkill for the average household. One of the issues is the places you are accessing over the Internet need to have extremely high bandwidth in order to provide downloads at 100 megabit.

    My employer just installed 1 gigabit Internet, but it is throttled at 300 megabit because we pay by usage. It is not as fast as you might think because most sites can't deliver data at gigabit speeds.

  9. #9
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    Well, the prices you all have mentioned make me feel a little better about Charter internet. I'm paying 59.95/month for 30/4 with no cap. I consistently get 34 down on the Speedtest site from a local test point. I have gotten better at times. Just ran a test, here is the result testing from Colorado Springs:2610735040.png I can't complain about how it well it works, and I guess I can't complain about the price, at least until they start screwing with it again. We do have outages about 2 times a year that seem to be tied to seasonal temp changes. It usually takes them a couple days to get it straightened out. If outages are not workable because of business needs, check to see if your cable provider has a business internet service like Charter does. There are guarantees on limits to down time. We haven't gone that direction. We don't like the outages, but can live with a temporary one. Jim.
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  10. #10
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    If you are concerned with reliability, you have the option of getting a dual band router and having both cable and DSL with the combined speed of both. If one drops out the other will keep working unless a tree takes out both wires.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Burch View Post
    ...about the only thing available was 3mbps wireless. Yesterday, I signed up with Hughesnet for a 15 mbps down/ 2mbps up plan, (satellite, $110/month)
    I hope you don't do VOIP, remote desktop, or VPN. The latency on statellite is in the several 100's of ms range. And maybe they found a way to handle this, but the speed use to drop into the 10's of KB/s range when using VPN becuase they couldn't compress it. Hopefully the new equipment is less sensitive to rain fade too. I would have gone for the wireless, or if available, Verizon HomeFusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Elfert View Post
    I just love all the geeks who think Americans should have a minimum of 100 megabit to the home with 1 Gigabit being better. I think even 100 megabit is way overkill for the average household. One of the issues is the places you are accessing over the Internet need to have extremely high bandwidth in order to provide downloads at 100 megabit.
    That's kind of my thinking. I just want the 110 for a month so I can gloat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg R Bradley View Post
    If the infrastructure on the existing DSL is fragile, then that changes everything. I thought I recalled from a previous post that they had brought fiber to a nearby DSLAM and then you had ADSL over copper for a short distance. Is there a concern that the reliability is not "fixed"?

    New infrastructure tends to be better than old but cable tends to be designed for the reliability requirements of TV and DSL is designed for the requirements of telephones. Telephones are also fixed faster.
    They used existing copper to feed a DSLAM about 2.75mi away and rewired me to that over existing copper. According to the tech most of the copper is over 50 years old. Really. And Frontier does not fix fast. A few business days is the normal response. Water-related issues generally temporarily go away before they respond, then of course come back, over and over and...

    The speed info is just what I'm looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim O'Dell View Post
    Well, the prices you all have mentioned make me feel a little better about Charter internet.
    Those are the non-discounted, non-bundled prices. Most of the plans are significantly less for the first year, or as part of a bundle. Even though we will keep DirecTV, it may be cheaper to pay for a TV/Phone/Internet bundle and just not use the TV. Really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Anderson View Post
    If you are concerned with reliability, you have the option of getting a dual band router and having both cable and DSL with the combined speed of both. If one drops out the other will keep working unless a tree takes out both wires.
    I've been thining about that too. I'd get Verizon HomeFusion as the backup as it would cost me about $36/mo over our current Share Everything plan. The HomeFusion service is $20 and we'd need to bump up to 10gb/mo which would cost us $16 since my wife gets a discount on the access charges. We already have a router that can do this.

    But...you don't get the combined speed. That requires bonding. Best you can get with just a dual-WAN router is load sharing. I'd use it in failover mode where the primarly connection going down would automatically switch to the secondary.


  12. #12
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    I will be doing VPN... How is VPN worse on satellite than cable? What difference would VPN make? Bits is bits.

  13. #13
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    I'm not sure but I know they at least used to say that VPN, SSL, and other encrypted data couldn't be compressed and a lot of their speed comes from compression. They say 50-75% loss and they are optimistic on everything.

    http://gen4.hughesnet.com/learn-more/questions


  14. #14
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    OK, I read the FAQ. It doesn't really say why. So, I searched and read an article about it. Seems the TCP header packets, and not just the data, are encrypted under VPN, so the satellite modem software can't "spoof" the sender and push the protocol out of "slow-start" up to "ramp up" speed. Makes sense, I guess. We'll see. Their FAQ is hinting at a change to be made this year.

  15. #15
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    There are many factors that are going to affect the individual answer for a given household. I have 83mb down/38mb up (effective throughput on a 75/35 plan) with no caps (FiOS) and I do see a difference, both when I'm working and using video conferencing or dealing with file upload/download as well as for personal use when we are streaming HD material from Amazon Prime or when there are multiple family members doing all kinds of things simultaneously. I will not say that it's substantially better than the 35/35 plan I was on previously, but it really rocks, otherwise. Picture quality is also outstanding on the TV side of things--largely uncompressed, unlike the cable provider. DSL would be almost a non-starter for me at this point (3/1 is the best I could get to this address) and the cable company's HSI is so variable in performance that I actually bagged it for the DSL that wouldn't serve me well today. Over time, I think everyone will benefit from higher speed access just because of the changing ways we communicate as individuals and families as well as the way we receive entertainment and other content.

    The mouse in the house, or fly in the ointment, however, is the whole concept and application of usage caps. It's a serious, serious issue, especially with the major US "telco" providers pushing folks to LTE wireless that is expensive and has low caps...rendering it virtually unusable/unaffordable for cutting edge entertainment for many families, even for average needs. LTE has reasonably good speed/throughput to meet these needs, but the caps are going to kill folks who opt for it, especially if it's the only option they have.
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