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Thread: Solar electric...what's up with that?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Lawton Oklahoma
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    Depending on location, why not small wind turbines? The intial cost is considerably less and the buyback is relatively quick compared to solar. I have seen wind turbines as big as the Skystream 3.7 in the middle of some towns. Of course, zoning and obstructions could affect your ability to put one of these up. It just seems that with many of the subsidies gone and the large initial up-front costs, Solar falls into the same category as replacing all the windows in the house (install vs. buyback). Unless there are tremendous discounts and the "need" is over-the-top, it just doesn't seem to pass the test of financial viability. I have three neighbors that have soloar and regret it daily vs. two neighbors with wind turbines who have achieved buyback in three years and the system works when the power goes out.

  2. #17
    I think solar is more viable in most places. A relative of mine put up a 10KW turbine in the early 80s and found that most days the output is either none or not a very large % of the rating.

    You have to put it on a tower, and I don't know how the new ones are for maintenance, but the older ones weren't as reliable as you'd guess (despite being fairly simple), and weren't maintenance free.

  3. #18
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    John,

    I live in suburban SoCal. There is no way in the world they would allow me to put a wind turbine in. The payback on my future system is supposed to be 4 1/2 years.

    In a way it is fortunate we had such a large bill this year. It gives Edison Co. a higher baseline to use figuring out just how much solar I can use. They will not allow you to produce more than your baseline year used.

    Rick Potter

  4. #19
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    Mar 2012
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    Virginia and Kentucky
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    If the figures are correct about wind energy, nearly 50% of it is currently funded by the federal government, 12.1 billion annually. That subsidy will end next year unless Congress renews it. Solar offer a better long term option for most people. I know one "truck farmer" who lives totally off-grid with solar but he doesn't need much electricity and most suburbs certainly wouldn't approve of his system's aesthetic looks. It's more of a "Mother Earth" type of thing. He's vigilant about maintaining it and set it up a few years ago. Loves being totally off-grid.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Pratt View Post
    Depending on location, why not small wind turbines? The intial cost is considerably less and the buyback is relatively quick compared to solar. I have seen wind turbines as big as the Skystream 3.7 in the middle of some towns. Of course, zoning and obstructions could affect your ability to put one of these up. It just seems that with many of the subsidies gone and the large initial up-front costs, Solar falls into the same category as replacing all the windows in the house (install vs. buyback). Unless there are tremendous discounts and the "need" is over-the-top, it just doesn't seem to pass the test of financial viability. I have three neighbors that have soloar and regret it daily vs. two neighbors with wind turbines who have achieved buyback in three years and the system works when the power goes out.
    John, my Dad looked into wind turbines (about 10 yrs ago) and the cost of ground prep + the tower + electrical was prohibitive (actual turbine wasn't too pricey). Do you have any costs for a modern installation (and the amount of KW/hr they produce)?

  6. #21
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    Jan 2013
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    Westwood, MA
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    They DO generate about 70-80% of my electrical power, which was as advertised. However, somehow, my electricity prices aren't about 70-80% less than they were. They are about half. NOBODY can explain to me why.
    One would think that the utility bill would show this? Utility bills are comprised of two main pieces; generation and distribution. Being a commerical acount your cost per kWh is probably based on consumption so the lower consumption the greater the cost per kWh. This along with you only save on the generation piece is probably why it's not 70-80% lower in bill.

  7. #22
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    Jan 2013
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    Westwood, MA
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    Now we wait for their engineer to come and make sure what I signed up for will work on my house. If not, we renegotiate.
    Has anyone discussed the weight you're putting on your roof? If structural reinforcement is required, was that included within the solar companies analysis?

  8. #23
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    Mar 2003
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    Upland CA
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    Good question Michael,

    When the engineer gets here Monday, I will be sure to ask him. I am not too worried about it because the old part of the roof that gets panels used to have a tile roof, and is now comp. The new part of the roof which gets most of the panels is new, and we built it pretty strong, above code for tile, even though it has comp.

    Preshan,
    I can tell you why your system goes off in a blackout. Here, at least, it is an Edison requirement. They don't want it feeding into their system when they may be working on it. Zap!

    Rick Potter

  9. #24
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    Dec 2006
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    Kevin;

    Gernment subsidies is my money along with millions of other taxpayers. If solar power is such a good deal it would not have to use the people's taxes to promote it. The free enterprize/captilist system would be all over it if it were financally feasable.

  10. #25
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    In my opinion, the way to look at this holistically is create a Montecarlo model on costs and correlation to energy prices etc. We performed one of these at my company a number of years ago (we had a number of blackouts, and electricity shoratges in SoCal) regarding cogeneration. When examining the various scenarios, there was payback when electricity and natural gas prices moved roughly equivelantly. If they didn't have correlated change in pricing, it was either incredibly favorable or negative.

    The other aspect of this was what was the cost to remain connected to the grid? We could generate enough electricity to be self sufficient. But the fees to remain connected to the grid, negated most if not all savings under most scenarios.

    The last major factor was the cost of money you assumed in the model. This is of course a simple equation dpending upon how you fund the project (borrow money or pay cash).

    The above relate to the solar situation this way. In Southern California where I live. Most of our electricity generation is from natural gas turbines. We have tiered rate structure (the more you use the higher the rate per KWH) to encourage consumption (a good thing in my opinion). If you over-generate, they won't be writing you any checks. So the most probable scenario where it makes sense is to provide enough capacity to keep you in the lowest of the tier structures consistantly. It also helps if you use more daytime vs nightime. If one were to have an electric car and charge during the day from solar, that scenario might be very favorable. We use on average 27.93 kWh per day. That throws us into tier four ($0.29/kWh). If i could offset demand to stay below a tier three rate, i can reduce my bill by $121/mo (~67%). We conserve quite a bit and don't have AC so we are not the best candidates right now. I do have an ideal roof for solar though. Some of my employees have ~$1500/mo bills in the summer from swimming pools and AC. For them, solar might make a great deal of sense.

    There are also companies that approach you to install the photovoltaic cells at their cost on your roof. You then would pay them for the electicity the PV array provides. Presumably, they disconnect you from the grid.
    Shawn

    "no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

    "I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"

  11. #26
    I realize I'm posting in an old thread but I want to give an update.

    My wife and I decided to go ahead and install a solar electric system, even though our electricity usage is fairly low - she really likes to be as green as possible. We put up a 14 panel system, with a maximum generating capacity of 3KW (but the peak generated has been about 2.6KW). Right now, it's generating about 18KWh a day, when we have cloudless days. I've noticed a gradual increase in the amount generated as the days get longer. On a cloudy day that could fall to 8KWh and would probably go lower on a really cloudy, rainy day.

    The surprise is that we're generating more electricity than we use. I've had days when our net usage is as much as -9KWh, but my average since March 11 (when things went live) is -4KWh per day. I need to build up a cushion because in August and September I know I'll use a lot more than I generate with the A/C on.

    I'm on a "net metering plan" which means that I only settle up with the power company once per year, although I get a "bill" each month to let me know what my cost status is. If I was accumulating a big obligation (meaning I'd owe a lot of money) I can make monthly payments - but I don't have to pay until the end of the year. If we wind up with the power company owing us money, they will pay us or roll over the credit to the next year.

    I have no idea how long it will take to pay for the system (I bought it outright) but I'm sure it will be somewhere around ten years. The system has a 20 year warrantee on it, but I expect it to last longer than that. Analyzing the return requires you to make estimates on what electricity will cost in the future. Putting in the system isolates me from future cost increases - and if I can generate more power (I guess the proper term is energy) than I use, I'll be rooting for large increase in the cost of power. Ah, capitalism, it all depends on what side of the equation you're on

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 03-26-2013 at 12:57 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    I realize I'm posting in an old thread but I want to give an update.

    My wife and I decided to go ahead and install a solar electric system, even though our electricity usage is fairly low - she really likes to be as green as possible. We put up a 14 panel system, with a maximum generating capacity of 3KW (but the peak generated has been about 2.6KW). Right now, it's generating about 18KWh a day, when we have cloudless days. I've noticed a gradual increase in the amount generated as the days get longer. On a cloudy day that could fall to 8KWh and would probably go lower on a really cloudy, rainy day.

    The surprise is that we're generating more electricity than we use. I've had days when our net usage is as much as -9KWh, but my average since March 11 (when things went live) is -4KWh per day. I need to build up a cushion because in August and September I know I'll use a lot more than I generate with the A/C on.

    I'm on a "net metering plan" which means that I only settle up with the power company once per year, although I get a "bill" each month to let me know what my cost status is. If I was accumulating a big obligation (meaning I'd owe a lot of money) I can make monthly payments - but I don't have to pay until the end of the year. If we wind up with the power company owing us money, they will pay us or roll over the credit to the next year.

    I have no idea how long it will take to pay for the system (I bought it outright) but I'm sure it will be somewhere around ten years. The system has a 20 year warrantee on it, but I expect it to last longer than that. Analyzing the return requires you to make estimates on what electricity will cost in the future. Putting in the system isolates me from future cost increases - and if I can generate more power (I guess the proper term is energy) than I use, I'll be rooting for large increase in the cost of power. Ah, capitalism, it all depends on what side of the equation you're on

    Mike
    That's not capitalism, that's any-ism. No matter what the ism, your position depends on what lens you're looking through.

    It's fantastic that you got the array put on, though, and that you bought it outright. As i mentioned in a previous post, we are in a bad area for solar, very near the worst in the united states. Still some folks have installed it cash, and a fellow near my parents did it (money burning a hole in his pocket). I said to my mother "I doubt he'll ever get paid back on that", and she said he'd never care. Solar is still not that bad of a move, even here, but wind is an awful proposition. Same guy got a windmill in the 2.5kw range installed, too, that was sort of dumb because there's nothing around here to suggest it would ever come close to paying back, but I think he was just curious.

    (we are at about 16 cents a kw/hr when all is said and done here)

    But in CA, with the prices you guys have. I'd do it in a second.

    I'm not particularly green, I think that widespread true poverty is really the only way you'll stop people from consuming a lot of energy, but we (the pa germans) a thrifty bunch sometimes, and where I grew up, there is a farm that has been generating all of their electricity plus surplus that gets put back on the grid from their cow poo.....


    .... since 1979. 600kw of generation capacity.

    http://www.epa.gov/agstar/projects/p...ixonfarms.html

    I have since seen news articles about how this farm or that farm in california is the first farm to be self sufficient and generate power from poo "since 2006" or whatever, but it must be a lack of research and lack of desire of journalists to actually get their story right (ghee, who'd have thought). The Waybrights' farm did it on the cheap, with their own design and power generation equipment from the 1930s that was mothballed.

    Which does bring something to the discussion. A lot of alternative energy solutions can be economically viable if a couple of people do them - innovative folks, but not so viable if everyone does them (solar not included in that, but electric cars sure have the potential to go there). We are seriously seriously lacking these days in the individual innovation that the Waybrights have.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Upland CA
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    5,547
    Wow, Mike,

    I knew you were getting it too, but I'm surprised to hear that it's up and running. I'm probably slower because I had to wait a few weeks to finish my refinance.

    Mine is on the front burner now, and the electrician is coming Thursday. The panels will be put on starting Monday....April fools day. Hmmm.

    We went big. Our system is as large as Edison would allow, 11 kW, with 46 panels. The more you get the better the price, kinda. We used an inordinate amount of electricity last year with three families living in the house. This allowed us to go bigger than we normaly would. I am hoping to be able to use the electric heater and big window AC in the shop more now.
    We'll see.

    We leased it for 20 years, and are paying it all up front. This saves us 20 years of interest on the lease, and gets us 20 years of guarantee and maintenance, and like you say, the system should last longer.

    Our payback is 4.5 years, as we should be generating pretty close to as much as we use. My Aunt Lois died at 91 a year ago, and left us enough to pay for this. We never expected it, and wanted to use the money in a meaningful way. Now, every time we get our electric bill we will think of her generosity.

    Thanks, Aunt Lois,
    Rick Potter

    PS: Michael S........Each panel weighs about 50#, and should be no problem for out roof. Also, we no longer have tile up there to worry about, since we replaced it with 50 year fiberglass shingles.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    SF Bay Area, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Portland View Post
    There are multiple ways you can get solar power:

    2) Company installs for free and owns the equipment, you buy electricity at a rate lower than the local grid. The company decides how many panel's they'll install (i.e. they may not install enough to get 100% of your home's energy usage covered). *Some* companies offer a buy option @ the end of the lease. Of course at this point you're sitting on 10-15 year old panels... I'm not sure if this would make sense. The company handles all equipment problems during the lease period.
    I went with this route. It was nice not having to shell out a dime to get solar on my roof.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Potter View Post
    11 kW, with 46 panels.
    Awesome! I've never heard of an individual homeowner installing an array that large. Way cool.

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