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Thread: Bad Axe saws worth it? Anyone try Winsor saws?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    Perth, Australia
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    Sean, again at the front where I can see that I am joining two lines. That way I also know I am sawing the vertical accurately. Sawing from the back corner along the line is one way of keeping the crosscut straight, but it also means that I have to guess for vertical.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  2. #62
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    Jan 2013
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    Mike, what are TFMM or TFWW saws?
    I do still maintain that set is for deeper cuts, not 1/2" dovetails though- the plate never gets deep enough for heat and binding. Set is for cross cutting, and ripping in wet hard and softwood, and deep cuts. You learn very quickly about set, and how to use and what saw to use, along with SHARP vs so-so sharp when cutting timber frame
    joinery by hand. If you want to know if your technique is good, and your equipment is good,try cutting a few mixed hardwood timber frames with pieces , some of which are 12 x 14-16" in cross section all with just a handsaw .1/2" dovetails in kiln dried white oak or maple should be a breeze with a proper saw.
    Peter

  3. #63
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    Dec 2010
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    Burlington, Vermont
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    I start sawing at the front with a push saw, but not at nearly as an extreme angle as Derek - on some woods, that "uphill" sawing action works easier for me.

    I really like the Gramercy joinery saws as well - I can't comment on the handles or the hang, as mine originally came from kits that a fellow Creeker built and eventually sold to finance other saw purchases. I have the two carcase saws, however, and I find I reach for the rip carcase saw for most all of my dovetails, and really any cut that will fit under the plate. The extra length really speeds dovetails, as well.

    The thing I like most about these, I think, is the balance - it must be the folded backs over the slotted backs of other saws, like the Lie-Nielsen saws I tried at their tool event, or the Adria dovetail saw I also have - the blade just ends up being much lighter. Gives it a more nimble feeling, and somehow makes it feel a little easier to keep in control. I've been experimenting with a slightly more aggressive rake on the rip saw and my Adria dovetail saw. (I have no idea how they were originally filed, or if the filings I received them with were original) The shorter Adria dovetail saw is actually heavier in the blade than the Gramercy, and I believe with the handles that were made, the hang is similar, so with a more aggressive rake, I actually need to sort of lift away extra pressure. With the lighter blades of the Gramercy saw, I just sort of let the saw sit there. I don't need to relieve the pressure.
    " Be willing to make mistakes in your basements, garages, apartments and palaces. I have made many. Your first attempts may be poor. They will not be futile. " - M.S. Bickford, Mouldings In Practice

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    Mike, what are TFMM or TFWW saws?

    I assume he's talking about the Gramercy saws made by Tools For Working Wood.
    " Be willing to make mistakes in your basements, garages, apartments and palaces. I have made many. Your first attempts may be poor. They will not be futile. " - M.S. Bickford, Mouldings In Practice

  5. #65
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    Ok , thanks Josh

  6. #66
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    Jan 2005
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    Milton, GA
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    Peter sorry for the abbreviations. I hate it when I don't know them too! Tools for Working Wood (TFWW, Gramercy) is just a long type for someone wearing cotton gloves. If you ever get the chance to get Dyshidrotic Exzema I recommend just taking a pass.

    Yes, set is very important. I have one saw I bought at auction that obviously was sanded down to the teeth, which I could not tell from the pictures. The saw sinks about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in wood and want move at all. I have a dozen or so old saws I have bought at auction over the last year or two, enough to see just how much difference set can make on a kerf and how the saw cuts. I had a problem starting cuts with my Gramercy saws when I first started using them. I still remind myself to reduce the pressure I am applying when using them.

    I have plans to make quite a few cabinet doors (from hardwood) and many long rip cuts. I have a pile of German Beech, Ash, and Hickory dried and humidity adjusted in my shop, waiting to be made into a bench and sawbenches. I broke down at the prospect of ripping/resawing all those boards. After much thought and posting here, I bought a Laguna LT14 SUV band saw with a 1 1/4" Resaw King blade and DriftMaster fence. Now I think I can loose the table saw and do all the "smaller" cuts by hand. I also restored a Miller Falls, Langdon 74C Miter box and saw. I will keep using my Festool saw for cutting plywood, MDF... Now if I can get my hands heeled I can start cutting wood instead of posting.

  7. #67
    I have owned a Winsor carcass saw for a few years now. During this time, I have also owned backsaws by L-N, Adria and Wenzloff. The Winsor saw continues to be my favorite, with 11" long plate and perfectly shaped Walnut handle. I have also sent a vintage saw to Robert @ Winsor for sharpening, and was very pleased. He is reasonable, and saw came back razor sharp.
    Wenzloff saws are top-notch as well. I have a tenon saw by Wenzloff, and love the feel of the closed handle. Beautifully made saws.

  8. #68
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    David, there really is no way to remove a kink from a saw that has a slotted back, according to Mark Harrell of Bad Axe. Saws with slotted backs have the plate glued into the back and attempting to remove the plate will ruin both the back and the plate. That said, if you don't kink or drop the saw there won't be a problem. I'm totally satisfied with my slotted back saws and don't think that paying twice the price for a folded back saw is justified.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    Well, I believe these saws to have about 10 degrees of rake from looking at the geometry of the teeth. What I don't like about the saw is the following: there is set in the rip saw, which from what I've gathered shouldn't be there on a saw that is only going to be cutting about 1" deep in most cases. The set is done in such a way, that the cheek of the tooth rubs the wood - set in the middle of the tooth not the leading edge like normal. So, tracking and cutting a clean line are more than just difficult. The blade seems to have a chromium content- never seen a blade so shiny when new, and still the same after about 5 years. A plain carbon spring steel is the best blade material for a saw. I have used dozens and dozens of old saws, and none of them have these issues even when getting a bit dull. Also, this steel just doesn't get SHARP like carbon steel. I have tried to get it cutting better, but this steel just mushrooms back a heavy wire edge when filed. Good steel will never do that, you will get very minimal wire edge with carbon steel, and it practically rubs right off.
    Also, the handle is hung on the saw way too high, it should be lower and behind the cut not on top. If I hold this saw in optimal control sawing position, the lower horn is in the heel of my palm, not exactly comfortable.
    so those are a few of my observations on the LN dovetail saw.
    peter
    Agree, and the scrapers they sell made with the same saw plate they use for their back saws are a pale imitation of, say, a vintage Sandvik. The L-N scrapers won't take a fine burr and hold it for more than a stroke or two. Just really chewy feeling metal under the burnisher.

  10. #70
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    Feb 2016
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    Edmonton, Alberta
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    I realise the OP has probably long since made their decision w.r.t which saw to purchase, but since the thread has been revived I figured I'd throw in my two cents. Which saw is good for you depends on what you plan to do with it - e.g. The first time I tried my thin plate LN dovetail and carcass saws was in a piece of pine, and they cut through like butter (they also do very well on hardwoods). The first time I tried my Bad Axe Sash saw, I tried it on a piece of pine and was....very disappointed. On the other hand, the Bad Axe saw cuts very well in hardwoods. Although I find their hybrid filing makes crosscutting easier than ripping, but that could just be me. Quality wise they are both great tools, though the BA are a step up, because of the small size of production and the folded backs making them more lifeproof.

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