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Thread: Wood Magazine to Test Whole Shop Cyclones

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    Let us take Jim's point a step further. Why not test the old Wood Magazine DIY cyclone, the update clone being sold on E-Bay, a Pentz design cyclone, and Phil's baffle connected to your motor/blower of choice? Why should the options be limited to just commercially available dust collectors/cyclones?
    Exactly. Cyclone should be tested for what they do- separate various sizes of particles at a cost of pressure drop. Impellers should be compared so the design advantages and disadvantages could be shared and trade offs made for each application. Filters, cartridges and bags could be compared for area needed and pressure drop as well as filtration. Motors could be discussed so I could learn what makes a good one- and DC need good motors. There could also be tests done to quantify what size dust is created when woodworking. Manufacturers design for large particles and woodworkers worry about submicron stuff. Identifying the problem is usually the first step. Seems like most of the technical info is from specific industries, woodworking not being one of them. Seems like magazines are trying to stay simple rather than pulling to reader up to a higher level. Maybe it is what makes us all happy. Dave

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    Let us take Jim's point a step further. Why not test the old Wood Magazine DIY cyclone, the update clone being sold on E-Bay, a Pentz design cyclone, and Phil's baffle connected to your motor/blower of choice? Why should the options be limited to just commercially available dust collectors/cyclones?
    In fact, why don't we just take a donation on this site and see if there is enough interest to go out and gather the needed equipment to do this comparison test. Some members have commercially bought that can be compared against. And there is more than enough equipment and knowledge here to pull this test off (any leftover equipment can be a raffle back to the donators when finished)

    $20 each donation wouldn't take that many people to get the job done... These units wouldn't be very $$ to put together.... Add a couple commercial units that members already have, and you Have some nice comparison of different levels of DC (including something other than large $$$ systems). The readership here might be interested.

    John L has the equipment to run a test. He has an Onieda and recently published some nice data on it. I am nearby him and might be able to piece together a clearvue (mine isnt quite the full clearvue, but we could make it such). I have a 3hp blower and might be able to put my hands on a 2hp easy enough (would upgrade to the 5hp for this testing, but that data has all been generated?) I bet we can find some of the other choices just by asking around.

    The question is, would any of this effort be USED for anything other than intellectual exercise? Most of the more prolific posters on the subject already have their system in place. And the newcomers are still going to come in with a budget and goals that may or may not be deemed 'adequate' (such as whether the goal is to collect the chips, or keep fine dust below a certain threshold). So unless it's helpful in some way, not a productive use of time....
    Last edited by Carl Beckett; 01-20-2013 at 10:10 AM.

  3. #63
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    The pity David is that there's actually the topics for years of highly useful and likely well received mag pieces within the subject of dust collection - but the key is as you say to drop down to the component level.

    Dumbing down it seems to me is the usual overplayed reaction to a genuine issue - one that becomes habitual, and which drives stuff in life into undesirable places until it gets so bad that we react and start to wake up again.

    It's one thing to search out ways to structure writing so that the message is more easily absorbed, and the learning becomes more entertaining. It's another to reduce the commentary on topics to formula driven sound bites, or to avoid them altogether. It could be the result of trying to cover too much ground too quickly, but it seems quite likely it's a cover for the selfish interest of the publisher too. It's simpler, less likely to draw flak, requires less effort and expertise, is more easily aligned with interests and so on - and so (no offence to shrinking group of long standing and very capable but now quite elderly guys on some of the mags intended) aids the 'grab a guy off the street' approach to recruiting writers.

    A related issue seems to be the tendency to pull punches - to not set out clear findings - presumably for fear of causing offence...

    ian

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    The pity David is that there's actually the topics for years of highly useful and likely well received mag pieces within the subject of dust collection - but the key is as you say to drop down to the component level.

    Dumbing down it seems to me is the usual overplayed reaction to a genuine issue - one that becomes habitual, and which drives stuff in life into undesirable places until it gets so bad that we react and start to wake up again.

    A related issue seems to be the tendency to pull punches - to not set out clear findings - presumably for fear of causing offence...

    ian
    I think it's more than just editorial Ian. I think there is just a very limited audience that cares enough to go that deeply into it. People just aren't interested enough to put the time, energy, and $$ into it.

    I for one have read more than I ever wanted to on the subject.

    'Should' the readers care more? Maybe. But that's an exercise like pushing on a rope. Even in this forum all DC threads are dominated by less than a handful of contributors that feel passionate about it. The other.... Xxx thousand members don't chime in too much. These threads do get a lot of readership so there is some educational interest - or perhaps at least part of this is the interest in the drama that so often comes with it.

  5. #65
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    I doubt that most woodworkers even know what levels of dust control they need to remain healthy and have a long and enjoyable time in the hobby. Apart from that different approaches are needed depending on the climate, workshop environment and even the type of woodwork undertaken. For instance in Australia we rarely use filters, exhausting straight to atmosphere. This has two advantages, increases the airflow and gets the dust out of the workshop with no chance or recirculation. There are all sorts of parameters to be aware of when thinking about a system that will be effective and do the job and a lot of those are dictated by the workshop environment not its size or the power of the system. I still do not understand why everything is dictated by HORSEPOWER when it should be the size of the impeller that is the important criteria. Yes it takes a certain amount of power to drive an impeller of a given size but my personal preference is to judge by impeller size. I can drive a 14, 15 or even 16" impeller with a 5hp motor and it is the impeller that will decide how well the job is done not the HP, so why the preference to quote HP when it is not the prime indicator of performance?

    Apart from that the North American market is the only one that uses 60hz and that is a big factor in any design. Wait a minute you guys are not interested in other markets but the mythical book that might be written will be read in other markets and taken as gospel when it will be completely wrong due to motor speeds being lower. Then we have duct sizing, some sizes available to certain markets and others not being able to buy the recommended size. I think any attempt to write a book would very difficult unless it was aimed at a specific market and that point was made clear at the outset/
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  6. #66
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    Unquestionably true as matters stand (that awareness is low), but surely that too is a reflection of the same status quo? Think that like so many things it's a matter of getting the topic on to the radar - lodged in people's belief systems.

    The key point for me is that with the power conferred by ownership of e.g. a sizeable publishing house there come a responsibility to demonstrate some leadership - to use it for the greater good. The key is probably how the topic is opened up - slap great wads of stuff on the table too quickly and eyes will glaze.....

  7. #67
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    There is a lot of info already out there for someone willing to take the time to do the research and put some effort into understanding it- there are books, Bill Pentz's site, forums like SMC, etc. It may be a little hard to wade through it all and it is not always in agreement, but the info is there.

    Unfortunately, like with other aspects of woodworking, too many folks want the "right" answer, want it in a simple to understand format, and want it quickly- "What should I buy, A or B?" There were a couple of good examples posted within the last week right here on SMC . Also, too many woodworkers still aren't convinced a DC is important. They buy one because it picks up chips, but also all-to-often, buy like they buy other tools and machines- just because "they want" one, because Norm others have one, etc.

    Unfortunately, I don't think that will change.

  8. #68
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    HI Chris,
    I agree that merely stating the HP does little to describe the performance of the DC. My personal opinion is that it is usually stated because it (and the FLA) are the few performance specs that can be read off the units that are considered to be at least acheivable under some condition. If you posted a CFM, it would also only be valid under a certain condition. Likewise with impeller size, it is a good spec to know, but still does not allow you to compare models from different manufacturers as to how much CFM they will deliver to your system and how much dust they will pass during operation. One manufacturer that specs a larger impellor may have cyclone or filter DP that would consume much of the extra SP available from the larger impellor.

    As far as 50/60 Hz, I think this would only apply to these "off-the-shelf systems". Manufacturers marketing their products internationally should post performance based on the local utilities available or at least dual list them or provied a conversion. Most industrial fans are selected independant of the motor and based only on fan speed, so the local electrical requirements are irrelavant unless the motor is also being purchased/supplied by the fan manufacturer.

    If a book was written as being discussed, the concepts related to fan speed vs CFM and SP delivered would be well understood and documented. Also, the relationship of duct size to system resistance and fitting losses would also be presented. In my day job, we often see specs for duct systems and collectors in Nm3/hr and Am3/hr and ducts with DN and mm designations both for international and domestic work. "Most" of the time engineering specs for duct systems allow the installing contractor to substitute equivalent local materials.

    I think the new version of the ACGIH manual will have dual units or that a metric version is going to be published.
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 01-20-2013 at 6:02 PM.

  9. #69
    Don't know how the weather is in Australia, but here it is cold, and don't think I could keep my shop warm with the dust collector exhausting outside, but agree it would be better dust wise. Also, last summer we had days with highs of 114 farenheit, and it was hard to cool the shop enough to be able to stay out there.
    Something caught in my mind from reading the thread about the different shapes of vanes of impellers got me to thinking. Wonder if anyone has tried curving the vanes so they look like the vanes of a furnace fan. Makes sense that if they were curved they would grab and throw more air.

  10. #70
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    The big issues are......

    No awareness of dust standards by the average woodworker and in a lot of cases no awareness of the damage dust does to the respiratory system

    No standard of testing and there never will be as no one is interested

    The hypothetical performance test standard would have to be world wide....in your dreams!!!

    Manufacturers are never going to agree an a test standard anyway so forget it

    No publisher will touch it unless it is litigation proof, not going to happen

    No one can agree on anything when it comes to DE, witness the arguments it causes in this place at times

    Other problems & pet peeves...

    99% of the literature and 100% of any magazine article that I have ever read give the reader false information and to overcome what is out there already will require a lot of work. The dust standards vary internationally so I am led to believe and the US standard is fairly low in comparison to other countries so what standard do you shoot for?

    The single biggest issue is to clarify the difference between fine dust collection and RETENTION and chip collection. Most people think if they get the big bits it is job done but the little bits are still flying around unseen.

    This forum will not allow me to link to other useful information which I find distasteful and inhibiting. There is at least one other forum out there that has a dedicated DE sub forum and a lot of work has been done on fine dust but I am not allowed to link to that. This is a question of people's health not a popularity contest.

    People who want to complicate a simple question to demonstrate their technical knowledge when a simple answer will do. For most hobbyists a cyclone with 15" impeller and a 6" duct system with good collection at the machines will mean job done. Buried in all of BP's writings he makes that exact point and there is no need to get all complicated about it.

    Someone needs to put up a glossary of terms somewhere so everyone can understand the lingo. SP means zip to most people and it gets thrown around as if it is fully understood.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Andrew View Post
    Don't know how the weather is in Australia, but here it is cold, and don't think I could keep my shop warm with the dust collector exhausting outside, but agree it would be better dust wise.
    Jim I fully understand the issue and we all have to make our choices but that choice needs to be understood, we are fortunate enough not to have to recirculate and it simplifies things enormously.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  12. #72
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    Quick question for the DC purists here: Given that fine dust is considered a significant long term health risk, do any of you use the 'air cleaners' like the Jet - that recirculates air and filters dust.

    How does the efficiency of this compare to a DC system?

    Im curious because it certainly stirs things up - wondered if this was a good thing or a bad thing.....

  13. #73
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    Carl, I use two but have replaced the stock filters with those from Wynn. The Jet and other hobby type ambients are rated at about MERV 10 vs 15 for my DC. The overheads need to be placed high enough to keep the stirred up air above your breathing zone or they can make things worse. Dave

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beckett View Post
    Quick question for the DC purists here: Given that fine dust is considered a significant long term health risk, do any of you use the 'air cleaners' like the Jet - that recirculates air and filters dust.

    How does the efficiency of this compare to a DC system?

    Im curious because it certainly stirs things up - wondered if this was a good thing or a bad thing.....
    I have a JDS and use it some. It does clear the air quickly. I mainly use it when I am doing something that generates a lot of airborne dust, i.e. no DC because of the application, mostly handheld routing operations.

    I'm not sure about the efficiency rating, haven't studied it that much. However, I can "see" a difference and "smell" a difference when using it. That tells me that if I am not using it, I am likely injesting some dust.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    People who want to complicate a simple question to demonstrate their technical knowledge when a simple answer will do. For most hobbyists a cyclone with 15" impeller and a 6" duct system with good collection at the machines will mean job done. Buried in all of BP's writings he makes that exact point and there is no need to get all complicated about it.

    Someone needs to put up a glossary of terms somewhere so everyone can understand the lingo. SP means zip to most people and it gets thrown around as if it is fully understood.
    Chris, I'm assuming you were referring to my post. My intent was to state that the impellor size is important, but one spec of the equipment does not determine the performance of the entire system. All of the components must be considered simultaneously as each will contribute to (or detract from) the system performance. If it was only the impellor size at play, Bill Pentz (who you reference) would not have gone into so much detail on duct and cyclone design.

    I will post a thread of commonly used DC terms and their abbreviations along with definitions as soon as you explain, in specific measurable terms, the definition of "good collection at the machines"?

    Mike
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 01-21-2013 at 12:42 PM.

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