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Thread: Observations on Euro style sliding saws

  1. #16
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    To start, I have a Felder CF 741. It is a combo machine, which is basically the K 700 Professional saw/shaper bolted to the AD 741 jointer/planer. The saw table is changed a bit to use the jointer surface as the table. It has the 2500mm sliding table, which is a bit over 8'. I can rip a full sheet of ply using the carriage. It also has the 2600mm (102") crosscut fence and outrigger. That gives capacity to crosscut a sheet of ply anywhere you want. The saw has a 7.5hp motor and a belt driven scoring blade. I use 12" Forrest blades mostly. I have a few Felder branded, which are Leitz, that are also good, but prefer Forrest.

    The machine includes a nice shaper, which pops up right behind the saw blade. This lets you use the sliding table to on the shaper, which is a great feature for many things. Raising panels or tenoning for example. The shaper has easily interchangable spindles and is powered by a separate 7.5hp motor. I have three, one common metric and the common standards. Speed is easily adjusted by the turn of a dial. I have the power feeder that swings up, and can be used over the saw, shaper or jointer.

    The jointer/planer is 410mm (16.1"). Mine has four straight knives. The spiral cutter was not avalible until a week or so after I bought my machine, or I would have bought it. There is nothing wrong with the straight cutters, just would have liked to try the spiral. The jointer/planer is powered by a third 7.5hp motor. I like to swing the feeder over the jointer outfeed bed and use it to face joint. It makes a job that gives me the hebejebees into something fun. I did buy the mortising table.

    Changeover from jointer to planer takes about 30 seconds, the power height adjust makes it easy. You can run one motor at a time, and you have to select which. The motors all have braking that stop them very quickly. The saw blade stops in about 3 seconds, a big shaper head takes longer.

    Several things I've noticed in operating this, it radically changed my work style. I am much faster now than with American style separates but it forces you to think a bit to avoid unnecessary changeovers. If you are not ok with that, you will probably not like a combo machine. One constant question I see deals with ripping. Having the sliding table doesn't necessarily change how you rip, if you don't want it too. You can use the fence just like a unisaw if you want. What it does do though, is give you the option of having the board ride on the slider instead. Most of the time I use a combo of that. I let the table float, and use the rip fence as a guide. The table just slides along with the board until the end of the cut, and I put a little down pressure on the board to make sure it stays in place on the table as we finish passing the blade. You can also clamp to the table, or use an edging shoe to hold the front end. The difference between a slider and regular saw, is only that you don't have to use the rip fence. Think of it as the ultimate taper jig at times.

    Most of my work is solid wood, but I bought the machine to handle ply sheets too. My shop is a standard 2 car garage, and the Felder sits at an angle in the middle of the room. Another misconception is how much space they take up. Yes, sliding an 8' long piece of ply will move the table 16', and you need a few extra feet behind it to stand. However, you can get its footprint down to 6 1/2' wide, and 8' long at rest. The outrigger comes off easily. I leave mine on most of the time, but to swing it full stroke, I have to wheel a couple portable tools out of the way. I can't imagine why I'd would want a shorter table, but I know some do, for good reasons.

    If I did it over, I would have bought it sooner. It's that good. I am building a new shop, and with the more space, I can see how having the jointer/planer separate from the saw/shaper would be beneficial. I would however buy the exact same machines. I have used the mortising table several times, and it is quite frankly, kind of a pain to set up. I would buy a separate mortiser rather than the add on. Dominos changed the game on loose tenons honestly.

    Something to be aware of, Felder machine accessories which there are a bunch of, are not cheap. Nothing about it is I guess. They are usually Aigner made components and they may be sourced else where. Leitz makes a bunch of Felders tooling. This is all top notch stuff, and I bring it up to point out that a Felder fence is kind of like a Beismeyer and clones here. It interchanges with many other manufacturers products, and is industry standard components. Blades and such are easy to source.

    I didn't want to write a book, sorry, hope that answers some of the questions. I started typing this earlier, so the actual experts have probably already done a better job than me.

  2. #17
    I'm one who is seriously considering a Hammer. Here is the quote I received this morning on their big saw:

    Options included on the K3W 78/48
    ------------------------------------------------------
    003 1 x 230V
    005 60 Hz
    019A 4.0 PS (3.0) kW
    74 Standard scoring unit
    77 Cutting and table extension 1250 mm
    87 Professional rip fence with a rip capacity 49 inches
    82 Removable flange for Dado blade
    132Z Sliding table 2000 mm .... 79"
    160 Outrigger table 1100
    166 Crosscut fence 1300 mm ... machine also comes with the shorter miter fence like seen on the other three us models.
    21 03.07.25080 TCT flat-trapezoidal tooth saw blade ............. at no extra charge
    22 03.09.08020 Adjustable TCT scoring saw blade D=80 ..... at no extra charge
    all above would be part of the special price 4999.00

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Heidrick View Post
    Also talk about access to power on and off buttons... are the buttons standard on the sliding table ends?... I also have never seen a slider manufacturer talk about how safe their saw is. Why is that?
    Mike interesting questions...

    Regarding the remote-start/stop buttons on the slider, there is a CE requirement that a physical cable NOT be used in these cases. The reason being that a cable sending the "stop" signal could theoretically be sheared by the sliding table if its shielding (however you might do that...) were to fail and allow the wire to become exposed to the slider guideways, thus preventing you from shutting off the saw. That is why every remote-start switch you see that is OEM from one of us uses a battery-powered RF transmitter to send the start/stop signal to the main relays.

    On that note, I personally feel that having a remote-start switch on your slider, even a 10.5'er, is not really needed. Reason being that I believe it is both safer and faster to just start the saw, leave it running as you process the panel or whatever, then shut off the machine when you are all done. I know folks have put boxes with remote start/stop switches on our machines, that I have seen connected by a bungee cable (plenty safe, I think), but again, it is my opinion that you do not really need this feature. Also, your single-phase motor will last a lot longer if you are not stopping and re-starting it all the time.

    Regarding the "why don't mfrs talk about how safe their sliders are?" question, my response would be that in Europe, the number of safety criteria that a machinery or tooling manufacturer must comply with simply in order to sell a machine is so stringent that in their minds, it is probably just a given that "the machine is designed to do things as safely as possible", if that makes any sense. For example, the dado cut is forbidden in Europe, all shaper tooling must be stamped as to whether or not a human hand can pass the wood over it or not, etc.

    Just my thoughts,

    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Foster View Post
    +1 on this topic, really like to know more about switching to a European saw, what was great about it, what was a surprise... Dust collection capabilities for specific saws.
    Jim, one thing you will find with Euro machinery is that requirements like dust extraction volume are called out by the manufacturer. At least ours are. Also, because there is so much emphasis there on working clean, the design of the dust collection, or ducting, inside the machine chassis tends to be very efficient. I don't want to jack this thread with a bunch of informercial type photos but if you are interested in talking more about this, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.R. Rutter View Post
    On a short stroke slider - like 50": Is there a crosscut fence design that will let you slide the crossbar out of the way for ripping, then move it back without losing calibration? Not interested in removing a fence completely...
    JR, if you can post a picture of the crosscut fence (and outrigger, if you have one) that you are using now, I might have some ideas on that.

    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA

  5. #20
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    Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm really confused about ripping on a true slider.

    The straight-line rip is simple to understand. Obviously this is a huge benefit of a slider. But as another poster said, what about the second rip cut (the one parallel to the straight-line rip)?

    I watched the video posted earlier (the one with the air clamps). I understand how you can rip two parallel sides on a plywood sheet- this is a case where your shorter dimension, which you cut at 90 degrees to the straight-line rip, is still long enough to get a good reference edge against the fence. If the cross cut is 90 degrees to the straight line rip, and if the second rip cut is 90 degrees to the freshly cut cross-cut side, then of course it stands to reason that the second rip cut will be parallel to the first rip cut.

    But can somebody please explain to me how you would make the second rip cut an 8 foot long, 8 inch wide piece of 8/4 hardwood without using the rip fence? Are there jigs for the sliding table that somehow ensures that you get a parallel rip cut?

    I see safety touted as a huge benefit of these saws, but the most dangerous cuts in terms of amputations are rip cuts (where your hands are closer to the blade). If you have to use the rip fence in this case, how is a slider in any way safer or as safe as a sawstop in terms of amputations?

    I love the idea of sliders, but I can't get past this issue. I keep seeing posts where people say sliders are just as safe as sawstops, but I don't understand how that claim is possible.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Aeschliman View Post
    But can somebody please explain to me how you would make the second rip cut an 8 foot long, 8 inch wide piece of 8/4 hardwood without using the rip fence? Are there jigs for the sliding table that somehow ensures that you get a parallel rip cut?
    From my research, the people that want to rip again on the slider and ensure that they are parallel end up using the flip stops on high end saw where the accuracy is really that good you can get away with it. On the cheaper sliders, I've seen jigs made that involve a movable point on the slider and one flip stop. Think like a finger midway down the board.

  7. #22
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    Peter, I would use the the slider in conjunction with the rip fence, as a "bump-stop". In other words, unlike a regular cabinet saw, where you would be applying a lot of pressure against the rip fence for the second cut, I would just set the slider rip fence to whatever width I wanted, then slide the slab over until it touched, then clamp it down, then pass the wagon through its stroke and make the cut. he difference being that the wagon (sliding table) is doing the work, as opposed to the operator doing the work by forcing the slab against the rip fence, a-la a jointer fence.

    Does that make sense?

    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Rozmiarek View Post
    One constant question I see deals with ripping. Having the sliding table doesn't necessarily change how you rip, if you don't want it too. You can use the fence just like a unisaw if you want. What it does do though, is give you the option of having the board ride on the slider instead. Most of the time I use a combo of that. I let the table float, and use the rip fence as a guide. The table just slides along with the board until the end of the cut, and I put a little down pressure on the board to make sure it stays in place on the table as we finish passing the blade. You can also clamp to the table, or use an edging shoe to hold the front end. The difference between a slider and regular saw, is only that you don't have to use the rip fence. Think of it as the ultimate taper jig at times.
    By the way Steve, thanks for starting this thread. I saw your comment in the sawstop thread and your point was well taken. Hence why I'm asking.

    Having re-read your post since my last post in this thread, I think the answer to my question about the parallel rip cut might lie in this paragraph.

    Are you saying that you position the rip fence such that you can ride the straight-line ripped edge along the rip fence, but you clamp the waste side of the board down to the sliding table, using the sliding table to push the workpiece through the blade?

    Did I understand that correctly? What do you do when you only want to take, say, half an inch off of the width of the board? I know I have to be missing something here. I'm truly not trying to be obstinate, I just want to understand.

  9. #24
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    I am rummaging through my Photobucket right now for relevant photos. These are from my colleague, Sam's, shop. No particular order, please bear with.

    You could also flip the piece and use a parallel fence...



    The "bump-stop" thing I mentioned...



    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA

  10. #25
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    As Erik said, you can slide the rip fence forward and load the board against it but clamps are really comforting. I try to set the rip fence as exact as I can with .001 or right on if I can get it toe out. Dave

  11. #26
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    Sorry, I was writing my second post at the same time as the previous two posters.

    Erik, I think your answer was coming to me at the same time you were writing your response. Makes total sense. I'm still confused about situations where you only have a little bit of waste on the slider side of the blade. How do you clamp the work piece down in that case?

    Again, I love the idea of a slider. Love it. I'm just trying to understand the safety aspect during rip cuts.

  12. #27
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    Erik, at the half way point through the blade, when the cut is complete, how are you continuing the right side (fence side) wood through the cut and where are you standing at that point? Are you crossing over the blade if you are on the side of the truck?

    Also is the piece against the fence the waste or the piece you are cutting?
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Aeschliman View Post
    Erik, I think your answer was coming to me at the same time you were writing your response. Makes total sense. I'm still confused about situations where you only have a little bit of waste on the slider side of the blade. How do you clamp the work piece down in that case?
    Would the cut you are thinking of be the first rip or the second (parallel) one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Heidrick View Post
    Erik, at the half way point through the blade, when the cut is complete, how are you continuing the right side (fence side) wood through the cut and where are you standing at that point? Are you crossing over the blade if you are on the side of the truck?

    Also is the piece against the fence the waste or the piece you are cutting?
    Mike, you would be standing to the left of the sliding table. Always to the left of the slider, regardless of what kind of cut. Here is video showing that cut (actually, I cringe while I watch it, since the blade sounds terrible and I sort of have no idea what the guy is doing with his "test cuts", but you will see how to walk along with the piece)...



    In answer to your second question, in that cut in the photo, the outboard, or left side, is the offcut. The slider is doing the work witht he rip fence (it is actually a modified "shorty" rip fence..) is just being used as a repetitious stop for mutiple panels to be cut to the same dimensions. This is a common technique in the panel processing industry.

    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA

  14. #29
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    That guy needs to try cutting wood on a 5hp sawstop LOL!! He bogged that saw all the way down!!

    The flipping up wood is what I was talking about. I see now its either that or you pull it towards you around the guard (or pull the off cut past and pull it over).
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  15. #30
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    Erik, is that a standard MM parallel fence? Nice. I have a clamp base from my pneumatic clamp that I milled to accept an extrusion with a flip stop. Mac Campshure make one with a bearing so it slides very smoothly. Set the stop and the clamp at the same time for ripping. I like yours though. Dave

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