Observations on Euro style sliding saws

[ian maybury]

There's a whole body of work on a slider that takes a bit of figuring out - in the sort of territory mentioned.

I have an 8ft Hammer K3, and still am still getting into it - but so far it seems to need clamps (the air clamps look nice, but manual clamps work fine too), parallel bars, a side table, and a separate mitre gauge with a short fence so that it's not necessary to disturb the main fence too often. The table is quite large, so it's not come up yet - but there's also the question of how best to set up out feed tables and the like.

Even when you have the hardware there's all sorts of little working techniques to be figured out. The edge of the slider is a great reference for getting pieces lined up off, and you can often use a simple tool like a combo square to do this - but there's scenarios too where various sorts of fixturing, measuring and set up tools can be useful. Some stuff on how others make certain sorts of cuts would be great.

So +1 that a comprehensive book/manual of slider use and techniques would be very useful. Maybe even somebody specialising in the supply of accessories for slider saws. 'The Slider Shop' anybody?

It's not the easiest to search, but the Felder Owner's Group site on Yahoo does link and contain some photos and posts on these topics - although it tends to come in widely distributed snippets in response to specific 'how to' questions..

ian

[Mike Konobeck]

This topic has been covered pretty extensively. I actually pulled a previous post of mine and pasted below (modified slightly):

I say this a lot but I guess this is one of those questions or advice providing situations where nobody can tell you how you like to work. You just have to try them out and see what you like. Contact Felder or Minimax and they will have a few names for you so you can go visit someone locally that has what you are looking at or at least close. A cabinet shop usually has the large 8-10' sliders that really don't give you an appreciation for the middle ground so find someone with a saw that is in your realistic budget.

What I don't understand is that when someone is standing at the decision of spending $3k+ on a saw they would not just buy a slider versus X,Y,orZ. The price difference is minimal and the amount of engineering you get is not comparable. Yes, the technology in a Sawstop is pretty cool and worth it if just that one time it saves your fingers or worse but the Sawstop doesn't prevent kickback or reduce exposure to the other injuries that come from a high speed spinning blade anymore than any other reputable brands out there today. Take away the technology of the Sawstop and it is just a cabinet saw.

I have a Felder combo (CF-731 Pro) and I have had it for 2 years. Bought it used.
Saw.jpg

I learn how to use it more efficiently every time I turn the power on or just stop and think that there has to be a better way. Those that don't like sliders for ripping likely have a very large capacity, dedicated sheet cutting saw with the outrigger and massive crosscut fence on all the time so you have to walk a 1/2 mile just to pull the stock off the outfeed side. Ripping using the fence is not really any safer than a conventional saw. Period. End of story. You can build carriers/parallel fences that utilize the slider for doing not only the straight line rip but final width ripping as well. This is what a feeder is for too. If you are going to be doing repetitive cuts or utilize a combo where it has a shaper then get one. Lots of creative ideas out there using the Incra fences. I have not done this yet but will eventually. This is obviously something that you can't do on a conventional saw and immediately makes the slider head and shoulders above the rest in safety when it comes to ripping.

Don't think of the slider length as limiting unless you are dead set on using the slider to rip sheet goods lengthwise You can build a carrier for hardwood stock ripping to overcome the slider length limitation. As long as you can get 48" of travel (through the blade) out of the slider it should be fine for sheet goods. I have never had to put an 8 foot piece of ply on the saw and cut end to end but I am not a professional either (far from it!). I have made a few cabinets though and never found it limiting. To me it is much easier to rip sheet goods down to width using a circular saw and take it to the slider for refinement If my saw wasn't in the basement I would have no hesitation throwing the sheet on the saw though and doing the width cuts first and then turning it to do lengthwise cuts. Always using the slider. Fingers far away with stock nicely clamped down. Another nice thing about the sliders is that you can add a lot of stuff to them. Of course at a significant cost but the sky is really the limit. Especially when you get into the partial or full combos.

If you want a slider and dedicate yourself to learning to use it efficiently then you will never look back. If your personality is that you don't like change then pass on a slider because it will only lead to testing your patience and your work will suffer. There is no disrespect meant in that statement to those that have tried and don't like it. It is really a personal preference thing. As long as you can cut wood safely and you enjoy what you are doing then nothing else matters.

[mreza Salav]

The real answer to both your scenarios is "bandsaw". You can use the slider like a regular table saw to make that cut on a thin piece of solid wood, the old fashioned way with the rip fence but honestly, I would do that particular rip (long and thin) the bandsaw.

Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

I agree that a "good" bandsaw is a safer machine to do this.

Honestly, I hear that sliders are very safe or some say safer than a sawstop but I have had my doubts (or questions) about the latter. I know that sliders are excellent at breaking down sheets, doing cross-cutting, and straight line rips. But the most dangerous operations on traditional table saws are rips of narrow pieces; that's when your hands get close to the blade (which you're supposed to avoid using push sticks, etc). If the setup of doing that kind of operation is similar on a slider then it still shares the most dangerous situation with a traditional table saw.
I guess you might use some sort of clamps or jigs as Dave is pointing out to do this very safely on a slider, but I still don't see how that could be repeat setup or quick.

[David Kumm]

For solid wood I think clamps are as integral to a slider as a power feeder on a shaper. There is no machine where I want my hand near the blade. I used to be pretty careless with my bandsaw until a 1" blade snapped. Even though they are much more safe a broken blade can decapitate before anything stops. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

I'm thinking of the second parallel cut.

Let me start over with a simple hypothetical. Let's say I have an 8 foot long, 6" wide board. It has already been milled: it's flat, square, straight, etc. The problem is, I need to cut the 6" wide board down to 5.5". I need to take half an inch off. Let's pretend I don't have a planer, where I could put a thick board on edge and run it through until it was 5.5".

With an 1/8" wide blade, that only leaves 3/8" of waste. If I were to use the technique as described, where you move the rip fence over so that the space between the rip fence and the blade is 5.5", press the "keeper" side of the workpiece against the fence, and attempt to slide the board through the cut using the sliding table, how could I hold it down without letting my hands get close to the blade? Clamps wouldn't be able to hold the piece down without hitting the blade.

This is the scenario I'm picturing when I ask how a slider is safer than a standard cabinet saw when ripping.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

Peter,
The way I read this is you are thinking of just final width dimensioning of a board. There are options with a slider depending on how you work and so on but the simplest option is to rip the board just as you would with a conventional saw. You simply set the rip fence to 5.5", slide the slider into a forward position, lock it, and in this configuration the saw is just a straight forward conventional table saw with the exception of a slight reach over the slider to rip. The only time you would have to make a configuration change is if you were ripping a very long board (longer than the travel of your slider) and you would simply have to remove the cross cut fence on the slider (two hand screws/10 seconds on mine) to allow for the long board.

The other way (an nicer in my opinion) is to have a simple shop made parallel fence that attaches to the slider cross cut fence. I made mine out of a piece of 1/2 poplar ply and some 4/4. Its simply a large speed square so to speak that you clamp to the cross cut fence giving you a 8' long fence on the slider running parallel to the blade. It costs about 40 bucks unlike the un-godly prices for some add on fence from the manufacturer. Also all you have to do to set your width is simply align with the flip stop. There is no second dimension, no worrying about calibration, nothing. If it ever needs to be checked, slide it over against the blade and skin a 32nd off an its guaranteed dead true.

I frequently break down large quantities of live edge material and the auxiliary fence is my preferred option. I straight line and stack on a cart then simply install the aux. fence (5 seconds hanging on the wall next to the slider), clamp it to the desired width using the flip stops for measurement. Then run the boards back through the saw with the SL edge against the aux. fence. Its extremely fast. Further there is no re-positioning of hands, no starts and stops in the feeding, no reaching for push sticks, nothing. Just as fast as you can load the boards on the slider you plow them through. This works well for me if Im not breaking down material with the feeder (which is the absolute best way).

The increased feed speeds give better blade life, more consistent cuts, and so on. Never a burn or saw mark where you had to pause to re-position your hands, nothing. And all the while through the entire operation your hands are far from the blade.

These issues with sliders are all pretty simple and in the world of forum postings, and over thinking, they can seem much more complicated than they are.

I think a great statement in this thread is the one that speaks to the fact that if your a person who struggles with change/changing up your operation because you've just always done it one way then there really isnt any point in looking any farther than a PM66.

[Mike Heidrick]

This is what a feeder is for too. If you are going to be doing repetitive cuts or utilize a combo where it has a shaper then get one. Lots of creative ideas out there using the Incra fences. I have not done this yet but will eventually. This is obviously something that you can't do on a conventional saw and immediately makes the slider head and shoulders above the rest in safety when it comes to ripping.

Why can you not add a feeder to a regular cabinet saw?

[David Kumm]

Why can you not add a feeder to a regular cabinet saw?

You can and many do. You need a stout frame if you want the feeder to flip out of the way or a good heavy cast iron table if it is going to remain in place. It doesn't excel at narrow rips as you will have to set the tires into the blade when the fence is closer than about 2" so they get wrecked quickly. You can mount the feeder just behind the blade so it grabs after the cut if you are dealing with long enough boards. A feeder won't slow down during a tough cut so the saw itself usually benefits from a bigger trunnion, arbor, and bearings if you use a feeder very often. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

[QUOTE=Erik Loza;2051093
The real answer to both your scenarios is "bandsaw".
Minimax USA[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the exact same thing as I read this thread. I've been in a position to have to split lots of 8/4, 10/4, and even 12/4 hard maple for millwork items, most of it on a circular saw, and it makes the hairs stand up on the back of my kneck the entire time. Never a serious problem, but wood has tension in balance, split a thick chunk in half, you disturb the balance. The band saw gives far less danger, faster feed rate, less waste, decent dust collection. Hard to beat, might require a few roller stands.

On the rip fence issue, I'm split. For big work, sheet goods, angles, a big sliding carraige is great. But for a pile of shorter parts with a great variety of widths such as a cultist for doors and FF parts for a complex run of built ins that jog around appliances.....1000# nuisance. I'm 5'6, I've never found a comfortable way to dance with a 10' sliding carraige while reaching over the blade playing shuffle board with stiles and rails. And resetting that parallel jig is great for a few large boards in a table top, not so great when you have 8 different widths to rip on parts under 48" length and under 6" widths. I never see videos showing the sort of work I do most using a slider, it's always some guy breaking down slabs or cutting sheet stock, or repetitive cross cuts. So my considered opinion as a slider user is, it will rip, not my favorite method though in many cases, least best option I have.

[Mark Bolton]

I guess perhaps Im use to it an it fits my shop/work flow. I have used it for everything from random width/length work (pieces ranging from 3" wide x 18" long on up to wide/long) all the way up to full kitchens with doors. I cant count the times Ive broken down several hundred feet of rough stock, random widths and lengths, in a morning alone. I cant even begin to guess what it would take me, and what the end result would be, with my TS.

Of course if my shop were larger and I wasnt averse to spending money on several more dedicated machines, I would. But for me its the bread and butter work horse in a shop. Slider and a conventional saw, I will be working at the slider the vast majority of the time. Regardless of the type of work Im doing, if I had the space and had to choose one machine for me it would be a no brainer.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I think the two most appealing solutions to my concerns about the parallel rip are:

1. Don't use the tablesaw at all. Use a bandsaw. The downside of this is, first, you need a bandsaw, and second it needs to be a really good bandsaw with a super nice blade to get close to the cut quality of a tablesaw. That said, the bandsaw has so many other great uses that most woodworkers probably already have a decent bandsaw anyway. Plus, people with the money to buy a true slider probably have the money to buy a good bandsaw. So for most people in the target market, this is a moot point.

2. Put a power feeder on the saw and use the rip fence for your rip cuts. This seems to require a bit of fidgeting.

Other solutions seem to involve fidgeting with jigs, getting out a square and/or other measuring implements to set the machine up, etc.

So, I'm going to draw a conclusion that many of you won't like. Here goes. Deep breath.

Parallel rip cuts are nearly as dangerous on a slider as they are with a cabinet saw, unless you go to extra lengths with jigs, extra measuring before each cut, or using power feeders.

Furthermore (and please try to resist the urge to get angry), the best combination of safety and convenience for parallel rip cuts is a sawstop. Yikes. Sorry. I said it. Please don't hate me or start yelling about politics.

If sawstop would get off their butts and get a true slider in the market, holy cow. I think that would be a massive game changer. Those of you who have the money to buy a true euro slider machine will be able to afford a sawstop version of the euro slider machine. There's most definitely a high end market there.

Again, I mean no offense and I'm not criticizing anybody who chose to go with a slider machine. Obviously the slider is way way safer than a traditional cabinet saw, and has extremely useful functions that a sawstop simply doesn't have. But I do challenge the assertion that it's just as safe as a sawstop due to the parallel rip cut issues. The sliders do have a significant advantage regarding kickback risk for many operations.

[mreza Salav]

Peter, I think you summed up my conclusion too. If you are working with a lot of sheet goods a good slider is a no brainer. For professional shops that is the saw to go with I think.
For people like me (hobbyist) who mostly work with solid woods it seems sawstop is the safest saw. I don't see myself getting a lot of advantage out of a slider.
If sawstop comes out with a slider I think that would be the safest saw and if it is at a reasonable price range I might upgrade to that.

[Mark Bolton]

Obviously the slider is way way safer than a traditional cabinet saw

I dont know what the definition of "way" is, but they are safer. That said they are still very dangerous. Its not to say to throw caution to the wind until your down to only half a pinky remaining on one hand but the simple fact of the matter is all tools are dangerous.

I say it to this day, working with power tools since my teens (close to 30 years), ten fingers and ten toes, and I still frequently get a pause when I fire up the saw. I consider it respect. That said, being overly scared/cautious of a tool, or being overly callous around tools, either one in my opinion are recipes for disaster.

I often remember a picture here, and have shown it to my guys a few times, of a guy (may read this) who mauled his hand on a stationary, but rotating, small brad point bit in the drill press. "Saw stopping" every dangerous thing in the shop is an impossibility.

The insurance industry will control when, and how wide spread, the implementation of sawtop-esk devices will be.

[Jeff Monson]

So my considered opinion as a slider user is, it will rip, not my favorite method though in many cases, least best option I have.

Well put, I'm in the same camp. When I'm ripping face frame parts (1 3/4" through 3") I use the rip fence, just as I would have with my cabinet saw. I find it no safer, as its the same operation. The other complaint I have with my slider and ripping narrow stock is, the slider sits higher than the cast surface of the table. I know this is pretty much a standard for sliders, but its just something I dont care for.

I still prefer a slider over a standard tablesaw. Someday hoepfully soon, I will have a decent bandsaw that is capable of consistent rippping.

[David Kumm]

Peter, there is a lot of truth to your analysis although I think it pertains best to ripping wood less than3" wide. As long as I can get my clamp- about 1.5" wide on the slider side of the board there is no need for hands at all. Having said that I still go to the rockwell with the grripper for short narrow stock less than 3". No SS but at least my hand is way above the blade and I am forced to keep the blade only a little above the thickness of the wood. For those limited cuts I could use my bosch portable as it does very well with a good blade. Dave

[Jim Foster]

It seems like this is true for the dangerous type rips we should not be taking on a tablesaw in general. (narrow, fingertips right by the saw, etc...) However, with the rip fence adjusted so it ends along the blade, and a riving knife, and the type of fence the Hammer has that can be turned 90 degrees and have much more room to keep the fingers away from the blade, I think this issue is greatly minimized. Also seems like much of the ripping can be done on the slider if it's setup properly. I don't have a slider, but it looks like a big benefit of the slider design is to try and get set up so as much cutting as possible is done using the slider, for crosscut and rip.

So, I'm going to draw a conclusion that many of you won't like. Here goes. Deep breath.

Parallel rip cuts are nearly as dangerous on a slider as they are with a cabinet saw, unless you go to extra lengths with jigs, extra measuring before each cut, or using power feeders.

Furthermore (and please try to resist the urge to get angry), the best combination of safety and convenience for parallel rip cuts is a sawstop. Yikes. Sorry. I said it. Please don't hate me or start yelling about politics.