Observations on Euro style sliding saws

[Peter Aeschliman]

I agree completely with all of you.

Frankly if I was really wealthy, my setup would be a sawstop for parallel rip cuts and a full euro slider for all other tablesaw cuts. But alas, I have resource constraints. So the best of both worlds would be a sawstop with a cast iron table and a biesemeyer style rip fence with a full outrigger euro style sliding table.

I paid a little over $3k for my sawstop PCS, and also bought an excalibur sliding table. I bought the excalibur used at an awesome price. But let's pretend I bought it new. Current prices are around $1,400. So all in, this setup brand new would cost $4,400, plus tax/etc. Let's call it $5k.

Hammer's K3 winner (79 x 48) is selling for $5k on their site. A sawstop sells at maybe a $1k premium over similarly equipped competing saws. So let's assume the same mark-up applies here. I'd definitely pay $6k for a sawstop slider. I'd have to sell my existing saw and pinch my pennies for a while, but I would totally do it.

[Norb Schmidt]

There are two methods I use to do that very thing (MM machine). I will either use the rip fence as you would normally, locking the slider and setting the fence 5.5" from the blade. I would feed the board standing behind the board to start - then move to the left of the slider, basically standing directly infront of the blade as the board is mostly through the cut. You don't have to worry about kickback - the riving knife is holding the back of the board off the back side of the blade. You would then use push sticks to finish the board directly past the blade. Be mindfull that the guards are ALWAYS on. It looks weird, pushing the board over the blade - but with the guarding it has never caused me any difficulty.

The second variation is to simply use stops on both the front and rear of the board on the slider set off 5.5" from the blade. Bump the board against these stops (with the slider fully pulled back), and push the slider through. There are stops your can purchase with the newer sliders, but mine is old so I have to make my own. Think of it as a t-track that mounts on the side of the slider with a ruled stop that I can stop wherever.

9 times out of 10 - I use the faster 1st method. And I sold my traditional saw (but have a friend who kept his Powermatic to rip and dado). I don't have the room.

Last thought - there are a number of video's out there (mostly european) that describe euro slider use. You have to approach them differently - I liken it to using a router table - you work in front of the blade most of the time. But - with the slider, the wood approaches the blade effortlessly - and under (usually) much better control. You aren't fighting friction - and when you are ripping a 4X8 piece of plywood - that is a good thing.

[Mark Bolton]

If I were really wealthy I would not be doing this for a living and hopefully be floating around on a fully staffed sailing yacht in the south pacific somewhere.

If I were going to really go hog wild on a saw Id go for something like a Martin T74 or T75 loaded. L/R dual bevel blade, fully auto fences, fully automatic electronic 3 axis scoring, miter cross cut table automatically adjusts/compensates for miters, electrically powered sliding table, etc...

If you can find a video or get to see one in action,.. pretty sweet but some serious coin

[David Kumm]

Peter, if SS builds a slider it will be interesting to see. They will have to get the tolerances right on the table which has been a weakness of Asian sliders or the operator will save his fingers but the frustration will lead to a stroke. Dave

[johnny means]

If i were wealthy... Oh who am i kidding? I'd still be piddling around the shop all day. Just with nicer toys and no thoughts about margins.

[Peter Aeschliman]

If i were wealthy... Oh who am i kidding? I'd still be piddling around the shop all day. Just with nicer toys and no thoughts about margins.

Ha ha, exactly!

[Chris Tsutsui]

Not that i tried this, but if I wanted to use the sliding table to remove a thin strip from a long board maybe I could adjust my rip fence so that it's spaced from the blade the correct amount of space that I want to remove. Then you clamp your work piece to the sliding table using the T-slots and hold downs while the wood is still flush touching the rip fence. Then you move the fence out of the way and make your cut. This should work if your blade is parallel to the rip fence though you might have to lower the blade to set this up.

I have had successful cross cutting smaller boards into small pieces in repetition using a similar method. I have one of those mag switches and I attach it to the cast iron in front of the blade near the measuring tape. I butt up my board against the magnet then use the slider to make the cross cut. The magnet acts as a stop block.

[Dominic Carpenter]

When I was looking to upgrade my table saw I heard and new very little about sliders. I was strongly considering a new powermatic, however, after educating myself with the help of Rich at Felder i decided that they make a whole lot of sense. As an owner of a slider I am shocked more of us here in the states are not using them. I think all of us (me included) see the equipment used by the craftsman on TV and think that is the way to go. I for one am extremely glad I went with the Hammer slider. I have had my Hammer K3 winner (78" sliding table) with a scoring blade and dado setup for about 8-9 months now and I could not be happier. I LOVE the big cross cut sled which attaches to the slider. Beautifully smooth and incredibly accurate. The sled can be moved the entire length of the slider, I have never needed to remove it to rip. It's nice to have 4 HP and the ability to use a 12" blade which gives you a full 4" depth of cut. I needed this several times on my last project. Not often considered, but that extra inch is really incredible to have.
Ripping has been addressed several places here, and I must say I feel more comfortable using this saw for ripping than I did with my conventional cabinet saw. Everything has a slight learning curve and this is no different. It does take a little getting used to, but it is surprising how much you begin to enjoy using this machine. I just thoroughly enjoy using this saw.
I do have one criticism, however, when cutting a full sheet of plywood the on/off switch on this machine is impossible to get to. I have contacted the tech support and they are aware of the issue, but currently do not have a work around for the Hammer. Remote start not recommended. Despite this, I am very happy I looked into these machines. I have mine on one side of a two car garage. And if the price worries you. The Hammer K3 Winner in slightly more than a new unisaw or powermatic and IMHO you get much more saw and incredible accuracy on crosscuts without building a homemade sled. Anyone serious about putting a great saw in their shop needs to look at the Euromachines.

[Mark Bolton]

when cutting a full sheet of plywood the on/off switch on this machine is impossible to get to. I have contacted the tech support and they are aware of the issue, but currently do not have a work around for the Hammer. Remote start not recommended.

So how are you accessing the switch when cutting sheet goods? Lock the slider in the rear, load your sheet, turn on the saw, then cut? I can see, but I guess I dont understand, why with a 78" slider they wouldnt put a second set of controls on the slider. Even if they were there with a full sheet on they would still be some 20" under the sheet.

I guess perhaps they figure if you are planning on breaking down sheet goods you would move up to a bigger saw...

[Mike Heidrick]

The K3 I just saw on youtube had an estop. Wire another switch or two in series with it if you just want a couple off button at the ends of the machine. Factormation sells some nice flush mounting buttons - Get normally closed contacts.

You could do wireless RF with a contactor too I am betting if you wanted on and off.

[Mike Heidrick]

I agree it would be hard not to buy a small K3 at $3299 vs a PM or Unisaw. I would so be wanting the $10K model though. Watching the setup videos on youtube you will see all the awesome extrusions in the big table.

I really would want Xroll on the 700/900 series though and that costs much as a vehicle. Oh and add the shaper - and all its parts. It would never end.

I still think I would be ripping like normal though. I could not stand all the fidgity setup of the parallel rip on every cut. Thats why I would just keep the sawstop I have and add the slider as a second saw.

[Andy Wojteczko]

Peter you can use the parallel stop. This is an optional accessory. You would use the standard cross cut fence at the forward end of the saw with the stop set at 5.5". Set the parallel stop at 5.5" at the other end of you 8 foot board and rip away. No clamps are required but do make it easier. The keeper piece stays left of the blade as you move the table through the blade. There is a simple jig that you can make to do very thin parallel strip cuts which is shown in the Holzidee #13 German magazine. Scroll down to page 46. Even if you don't understand German you will get the idea.
http://www.festool.de/Aktionen/Festo...-Ausgaben.aspx

Once you have used a slider there is no looking back.
I have a Felder Kappa 40 with a 10.5 foot slider which is used as a hobby machine. I bought it used from a one man cabinet shop that was closing.

Andy

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter you can use the parallel stop. This is an optional accessory. You would use the standard cross cut fence at the forward end of the saw with the stop set at 5.5". Set the parallel stop at 5.5" at the other end of you 8 foot board and rip away. No clamps are required but do make it easier. The keeper piece stays left of the blade as you move the table through the blade. There is a simple jig that you can make to do very thin parallel strip cuts which is shown in the Holzidee #13 German magazine. Scroll down to page 46. Even if you don't understand German you will get the idea.
http://www.festool.de/Aktionen/Festo...-Ausgaben.aspx

Once you have used a slider there is no looking back.
I have a Felder Kappa 40 with a 10.5 foot slider which is used as a hobby machine. I bought it used from a one man cabinet shop that was closing.

Andy

Wow, I never would have thought of a jig (or jigs) like that. So the fence is pulled back to avoid a pinch area, but serves to dial in the cut width... and the cut is completed by using a big push-block looking thing that rides in the t-slots, with an opposing piece against the cross cut fence. Pretty smart.

To me, it's almost as if the sliding table needs to have another rip fence that is perfectly parallel to the blade and can be dropped in and removed easily, with hold down clamps. That would completely solve the problem I'm having with the parallel rip and win me over.

Anyway, good stuff. Thanks for posting.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm thinking of the second parallel cut.

Let me start over with a simple hypothetical. Let's say I have an 8 foot long, 6" wide board. It has already been milled: it's flat, square, straight, etc. The problem is, I need to cut the 6" wide board down to 5.5". I need to take half an inch off. Let's pretend I don't have a planer, where I could put a thick board on edge and run it through until it was 5.5".

With an 1/8" wide blade, that only leaves 3/8" of waste. If I were to use the technique as described, where you move the rip fence over so that the space between the rip fence and the blade is 5.5", press the "keeper" side of the workpiece against the fence, and attempt to slide the board through the cut using the sliding table, how could I hold it down without letting my hands get close to the blade? Clamps wouldn't be able to hold the piece down without hitting the blade.

This is the scenario I'm picturing when I ask how a slider is safer than a standard cabinet saw when ripping.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

Peter, I'm trying to catch up on reading all these posts, and just reread his.

To do this cut, which is a fairly common cut, I set the short rip fence at 3/8", set so that it stops before the blade. Put the 6" board on the slider, and hold it against the rip fence as you move it through the cut. As you get close to done with the cut, transfer the holding against the fence pressure to down pressure and continue the cut with the carriage moving with the keeper board. The off cut will stop beside the blade, but because the short fence is used, it is not between the blade and anything else. Not that it could take off with the riving knife, but the short fence provides another bit of safety.

I do think this is far safer than a conventional saw, including the Sawstop, because all parts of the board and offcut are always captured or completely free of the blade. I have a unisaw too, and i use the Felder for everything but cement board now, partially because it is safer. Partially because it is just fun.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Dominic, any idea why the Felder remote switch won't work? It's just a wireless receiver that trips the relay's control circuit. Seems like it should be possible. Maybe they don't have the end plate or something.