Dust collection advise solicited - it's an old story

[John Piwaron]

I know, this is an old story.

I'd like advise on dust collection. Currently I use a single stage dust collector. A 650 CFM Delta unit with a fiber filter bag. It's probably not the best. It's better than nothing. It also fits into available space. I'm using it with a flexible hose connected to one tool at a time.

But I'd like better. Higher CFM. Better fine particulate filtration. Even to centrally locate it and run some ducting to collect from multiple tools, though one at a time. I read that cyclones do a good job, but what about separating out the finest particles? then there's the size issue. Most cyclones are a little too tall for my basement shop. That's key - I work in the basement of my house. This is a hobby, not a business. It's the hobby that got out of control.

I just saw a unit offered by Laguna. Size wise it'd fit, but it's design doesn't look like a clearvue or onieda. Is it any good? Worth considering? Through it all, I'd like whatever to work and fit into the space I have.

[Brian Brightwell]

I am just getting my DC off the ground. It is hooked to my table saws and jointer. I went with a 5Hp ClearVeu. I put the cyclone outside and discharge air is outside so no filters or dust from them are inside. Seems to work well. The noise is very tolerable. I don't even have to raise the volume to lessen to Rush.

[David Kumm]

John, your height restriction means you will not have a cyclone that separates the fines well so you need to engineer it from the filter side. I would talk to Wynn and any other filter mfg you want first. Assuming you don't have room for bags- they are the easiest to clean- you want filters that surface load, last longer between cleanings, and discharge the dust cake as easily as possible. The right filters will compensate for the short cyclone but will take more monitoring. I know that Ole and others here have done some permanent monitors on their systems know identify the CFM drop associated with filters plugging so you keep ahead of the curve. Your other option is to look at the Aget cyclones that are push through or just locate the blower in a different position rather than at the top of the cyclone. You can get a 90 fitting for the top of the cyclone and stick the blower and filters elsewhere in the basement. Dave

[John Piwaron]

Dave - good ideas. Thanks. I'll certainly look into those things.

I've seen some models made by Oneida that would fit, but will have to check those as best I can as to whether or not they'd do the job. Fit matters in this use, but if fit means no performance it's hardly worth the effort.

Brian - locating it outside would be great! If not for the fact that the air being discharged is air that has to be drawn back into the house from elsewhere. Kind of a problem in Wisconsin in winter. If only Clearvue made something just a little less tall.

Now, as I said, I *do* have a single stage Delta, there's room for *something*, perhaps the #1 thing on the list is eliminating all the dust. Including the very finest stuff. Without sacrificing too much airflow. I'm thinking 650 CFM is pretty minimal. Being that small means stationing it right next to the tool with the shortest hose possible.

the cyclone itself would separate everything gross chips plus the fine dust. Maybe there's a way to separate the gross stuff from the airstream and then run through a cyclone just to separate the fines. A large container under it wouldn't be needed then. Or so it would seem.

[David Kumm]

John, no cyclone under about 8' is going to separate fines really well. Go on the Fisher Klostermann website and look at their cyclone that are efficient at 5 microns and see how long they are. Even the clearvue, while much better than most is going to depend on the filters for the fines. Most hobby cyclones are in the 40% range below 10 microns so it is the filters you need to worry about. The cyclone is meant for the big stuff. Getting that in a cartridge is bad. Some bigger dust is OK because it drops off the media and brings some of the fine dust with it. A way to improve your situation would also be to add more cartridges than the unit comes with. Doubling the filter area not only helps the cfm but lowers the velocity of the dust entering the cartridge and accordingly doesn't push it so far into the material. Makes cleaning easier. Dave

[glenn bradley]

It is an old story with very few good endings. Size restrictions make good dust collection pretty difficult. I'm not talking about not having sawdust on the floor, I 'm talking about not breathing air that is full of stuff you can't see. I'm sometimes a bit harsh on this subject but, my biological breathing apparatus is irreparably damaged due to use of a bag unit as you describe and that was with the garage door open. I can't wish that on anyone. Your bag unit is blasting your confined airspace with dust the size of cigarette smoke in concentrations that would make a cocktail lounge in a Bogie movie seem tame. Please wear a respirator whenever you are working until you can get something installed that will do a good job. I have to wear one all the time now, period; you don't want that, trust me ;-)

Where you are geographically can make venting outside a problem due to weather, if not the neighbors. Your cyclone removes the bulk of the material so your filters clog less often and are able to return decent air into your shop for longer periods between cleanings. The better the cyclone, the less stuff gets to the filters. You won't want a large sawdust barrel if you're in the basement as it will be difficult to get out unless you have ground level access. If nothing else, American Fabric Filter can make you oversized bags that can be odd shapes to fit into as much a space as possible. A cartridge would probably be even better but, I would still wear a mask. What is your height limit?

[John Piwaron]

Where you are geographically can make venting outside a problem due to weather, if not the neighbors. Your cyclone removes the bulk of the material so your filters clog less often and are able to return decent air into your shop for longer periods between cleanings. The better the cyclone, the less stuff gets to the filters. You won't want a large sawdust barrel if you're in the basement as it will be difficult to get out unless you have ground level access. If nothing else, American Fabric Filter can make you oversized bags that can be odd shapes to fit into as much a space as possible. A cartridge would probably be even better but, I would still wear a mask. What is your height limit?

The max height available is 80". Even then, having anything that went that high would probably be difficult to move around. Were I to go that high I'd want fix it in place.

I collect the "gross" stuff, as does everyone, in the bag of the single stage. You know, the plastic bag everyone has on that kind of machine. I don't fill it all that often. I use a Festool vac to collect from my sanders. *That* appears to work exceptionally well. All that said, a 55 gallon trash can isn't a problem. I use one now.

Delta made a filter cartridge for my machine, at least for a while. I don't see that on their website anymore. Maybe there's one from Jet that would fit. They seem to copy everything.

What I'm getting so far is that it's filtration rather than collection that matters most. A cyclone seems to be arranged better for filtration. Air comes in on one side and exits out the other with all the junk riding in the air going out the bottom of the cone. Leading now to the thought that a trash can separator is better. The big stuff falls out and now the output just has to be directed in to a filter.

[Andrew Joiner]

I am just getting my DC off the ground. It is hooked to my table saws and jointer. I went with a 5Hp ClearVeu. I put the cyclone outside and discharge air is outside so no filters or dust from them are inside. Seems to work well. The noise is very tolerable. I don't even have to raise the volume to lessen to Rush.

I been reading up on ducting outside and I have very little experience wth dust collection. Why would you need a cyclone if you're discharging your air outside? Couldn't you just blow everything collected into a container?

[David Kumm]

I been reading up on ducting outside and I have very little experience wth dust collection. Why would you need a cyclone if you're discharging your air outside? Couldn't you just blow everything collected into a container?

Ducting outside in a basement in WI is going to make your wife crazy unless you can direct the make up air so the rest of the house stays out of the loop. In summer you will be putting humid air into the basement and that causes all kinds of issues. Oneida makes some lower height 35 gallon drums that will give you some extra room. If you go the cyclone you need some space between the bottom of the cone and the drum. If the cyclone and blower could be in the garage and pipe back in to filters you would be golden. Dave

[Steven Satur]

001.jpgMy basement shop has a ceiling height of 83". I put a Clearvue 1800 in last year.
With some modifications it will fit.

[ian maybury]

Another option John may be to go the ClearVue or a similarly tall cyclone (try not to give anything away on dust system performance) but either (a) leave the unit layout more or less as is but poke the fan through a ceiling into an attic space or similar (mine does this http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones...Max/ondablade/ - the cyclone inlet is positioned so that it's just under the ceiling at the level of the inlet duct run, and the filters are located some distance away), and/or (b) separate the fan from the cyclone, and link the two with some ducting etc.

In the latter case the orientation of the fan shouldn't matter - just go with what suits the layout. It might need a different mounting to the stock one - but it's important that whatever it is it's soft. (has vibration absorbtion rubbers built in to prevent it making noise by transmitting vibration into the building etc)

The cyclone must be mounted vertically if it is to work, and needs about 7ft of straight duct run to its inlet.

The filters can be mounted in all sorts of ways - it's again no problem to add some additional ducting (which in this case can be 8in dia - my filters are about 8ft and two 90 deg bends away from my fan) between the fan exhaust and wherever you can fit your filters - which can at a push even be mounted horizontally. The losses are negligible unless you install lots of tight bends. Subject to checking which way the filters are designed to flow (the Wynn's may be different) you could also as I did mount the filters in a cabinet giving outside to inside air flow - this makes cleaning easier, and is the way most cartridges are designed to work.

There's benefits to ducting to the filters, and to a layout like this - it allows fitment of a say $50 concentric silencer/attentuator (a stock HVAC part) in the duct which gives a nice noise reduction, and it often facilitates getting a nice straight duct run from the shop into the cyclone.

Also for noise reduction - make sure that the various sections of ducting and the dust system are isolated so they don't get vibration from the fan and cyclone - use short sections of flex hose...

There's lots of installation photos on the above site, probably several where the main components have been separated like this.

ian

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Is your 80" inches to a finished ceiling? My Clearvue fits in a 90" basement height because I went up between the floor joist space to pick up an additional 7 1/2 inches. My blower assembly hangs from the floor joists and the motor sticks up to within an inch of the floor. I also used a 35 gallon dust bin from Penn State to save space, but you could go smaller than that.

As Ian suggested, call Clearvue. Their machines are very adaptable and there are hundreds of pictures on their website with every imaginable installation possibility.

[John Piwaron]

80" to bottom of joist above. Additional space between them to use if God smiles at the spot it would be at.

Obviously this will be quite the project. They're not exactly turn key are they?

And then there's the simple fact that some tools don't work so well with dust collection. And even one that does, like a TS, still throws dust on top. And routers outside a table.

[Ole Anderson]

And then there's the simple fact that some tools don't work so well with dust collection. And even one that does, like a TS, still throws dust on top. And routers outside a table.

Once you get set up, you will want to look at table top collection on your saw, using something like a SharkGuard. And today I was using my router with a dust collection attachment and cut some dadoes using a jig with nearly 100% collection. Freehand routing on an edge is a different story, but if you can do it with a router table with good collection at the rear of the fence you can get excellent dust collection.

[Wade Lippman]

I had the 3hp JDS. It is too big for you I think, but it is the same design I think as the 2hp Laguna.
I filled a 55 gallon drum and had a couple cups of duct get to the filter. I know other people claim 2 tablespoons, but I thought 2 cups was reasonable.
So... I wouldn't be scared of the Laguna just because it is short.
That said, I didn't particularly like the JDS; but it was more about the clumsy drum and the filter cleaning motor than the performance.

Someone suggested putting the motor between the joists. I have heard that is a good way to fry your motor.