Chinese Machines vs Kits vs. Used

[daniel coyle]

I am trying to source a machine to do heavy wood hogging on a deep Z profile. Have been outsourcing it for 18 months and need to bring it in house. Basically bowling out/shaping a solid chunk of hardwood down to that is x=14 y=10 and Z=6-8". Removing about 90% of the wood to build the product.

I lease a shop sabre with no ATC and a 7.5 hp spindle with steppers now. It works hard to carve the whole peice, top and bottom, in about 90 minutes machine time and an extra 30 for set up, 'manual' referencing and manual toolchanging. Shop sabre makes their routers a little stouter now than they made this one and if I could find a used one for under 14K I would be interested (especially if it had multiple heads or an ATC). For the kind of production work I would like to do I think I really need a very stout machine with a moving table, but reality is what it is and i will make do with something that is 'good enough'.

for now I have about 20K I can afford to part with (though I am hoping to get below 15K) and am trying to get opinions on the following: Chinese Routers (who owns one? what is your experience? what companies have good reputations?) - CNC kits (are there kits out there that are appropriate for a heavier use application like mine?) - Used machines (I have done a lot of searching for these, often if the price is good the control needs replacing on a sturdy old machine. I use Ebay, regional craigslist, cnczone, sawmill creek etc to look for machines. Any other good places to find them? I find the brokered ones are often a little steep)

What i feel most beginnerish about is the kits and the chinese machines.

Thanks for any help or sharing of experience.

[Ernie Martinez]

I have a Laguna IQ (Chinese), which wouldn't be sufficient for your job, but based on my experience so far, go with a US made machine, if you're dealing with big hunks of wood, you'll want a real solid heavy machine, some of the DIY's I've seen look a bit slim.

[Kevin L. Waldron]

Ever though about factory auctions?

Here are two flyer's that I received recently.

http://www.auctionaz.com/011613tw.html

http://emailactivity1.ecn5.com/engin...ilID=191927457

Usually the bigger the machine the cheaper..... ( most people don't have the room or don't want to rig it... )

Look around still lots of sells of companies closing......

Blessings,

Kevin

[Ernie Martinez]

If you want a taste of Chinese Machines, read a Thread that I started "Initial Laguna HHC review". I have been documenting my experience with this machine since there was no available information on this machine when I was shopping for a CNC machine.

[daniel coyle]

Thanks for the feedback. I have not gotten nearly the response from Chinese CNC router manufacturing as I got for the laser I bought. Curious... I'm not sure what things to focus on when trying to determine the machine's likely rigidity (gross weight? type of rails or gantry? moving table? etc?) I would like to have a machine that i could put two heads on at some point so it would be great to have something especially beefy.

thanks, kevin, for the links. they often do have good machines. and, i agree that the bigger machines can come in pretty cheap but i get scared at the cost of moving them around and upgrading old controllers. is this a big deal?

[Gene Crain]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...86-Been-awhile

[Richard Coers]

Curious why you have to bring it in-house? It'll take quite a few of those to bring in the profit to pay for a 20K machine. It might be that you need to get a better shop to make them. Are you running roughing bits for the rough cuts? Don't think you will get your dream machine on that budget. Especially if you need new software. What software are you using now? If you go used or Chinese, you better know how to tinker with these things. I don't, so went with what I thought was a good supplier. They've gone out of business since we bought.

[Jerome Stanek]

Can you make a jig to hold the part and rough cut several before you do the finish cut.

[Nick Michalares]

Daniel, I worked as a tech at a US engraving machine manufacturer for the last few years and was witness to the Chinese CNC machines they would import then spend at minimum 2 weeks reworking to their standards for precision and their specific electronics. It came out pretty good in the end, but there was no way these were in turnkey condition when they got them plus each one was different. I know of an older model 2448 CNC router table available. it would require new electronics, about 5K and maybe a router motor to do what you want to do, but it is entirely capable of something like that. A new 2448 CNC from Vision would probably be around 20K by the time you got what you needed on it. The used table with new electronics could be about half that set up on location.

[Tom Malzacher]

Hi Daniel - I did buy a Chinese router about 8 months ago - it is a 4'x6' table - and it has 4 heads - 2.2kw spindles. I don't think I would do it again for the following reasons. First you have to order it - then wire your money to them. Then about 25-30 days after they ship it you will get it - at least to the port. Then you will need a broker in most cases - and it gets pretty expensive. I also had to pay $140 for customs to inspect it. I think between all the costs of the broker, inspections and duties I paid close to $1,400 alone. I also went to the warehouse in NJ to pick it up with a trailer - otherwise it was another $500 to deliver.

I did get it - unloaded it and set it up. It came with Mach3 - but no settings at all to use in Mach3. Emailing with them did get some settings - but some I had to do myself. The connecting bar holding the spindles with 1/4" lower on the right side than left - so it had a sort of umbrella look. The right spindle would then be on a slight skew toward the part - it was not acceptable. So they said they would give me a new part, but I had to pay DHL to deliver it ($200).

The machine seems to be pretty sturdy - and does run pretty well. I did run into a problem a month ago where the USB board they supply in the controller drops communication once in a while. I emailed them and they knew about it. After a few emails they agreed to replace it with a new different card after the Chinese New Year. I have to say they do respond to me all the time and very quickly. We'll see how that goes though.

I have only run this machine about 40 hours so far - and it does run pretty smooth with decent accuracy. I've read some other people's horror stories though - so I consider myself lucky at this point.
The 4th axis table I bought with it looked like a 5 year old made it in craft class - it was just not too nice at all. I still have not plugged it in to try it - just too afraid !

One other thing - when I received it I saw they had 16g wire going into the machine to it's 240v breaker. I told them that's really too thin for 4 spindles and the machine to run. They said they would
tell their engineer and they may change this if they think they need to. I went into the machine and replaced all of it with 10g wire - and it has run well since.

I hope this helps some - I just don't think I could do it again - I would just not know what to expect and what would arrive. I'm sure it would be a whole new experience.

I have dealt with Bill and Josh Glenn at Camaster and also have an older machine they made - very nice people to deal with. They use the WinCNC controller and it is really easy to use.
I also read about Vision - they also are nice to deal with and make a very nice machine. If it were me I would look for used and see if they can run you through using it before you buy it.

Tom