What is "Ol' Arn"?

[johnny means]

How would you define old iron? For example, I myself wouldn't consider any Unisaw as old iron because the design and build quality is pretty much the same as contemporary machines. Yet, I would consider an American slider from the same era Old Arn because of the outdated design and functionality.

[Jim Matthews]

If by outdated design you mean, built to outlast the pyramids, then yes.

I consider Old Arn to be pre-WWII, with unexpected flourishes in the castings.
(Like the Snowflake design...)

[Cary Falk]

The Unisaw is outdated in the fact that it doesn't have a riving knife. I consider anything older than me(1971) to be ol arn.

[David Kumm]

OWWM guys define it as non asian machinery over 20 years old. Unisaw qualifies. I break it into babbit or flat belt, ball bearing and cast iron, and fabricated steel period. Stuff with circuit board electronics is a whole subset- generally to be avoided. Dave

[David Weaver]

Ol Arn is one of the four horsemen.

Wooooooooo!

[johnny means]

[/QUOTE=Jim Matthews;2057170]If by outdated design you mean, built to outlast the pyramids, then yes.

I consider Old Arn to be pre-WWII, with unexpected flourishes in the castings.
(Like the Snowflake design...)[/QUOTE]

I should have said dated not outdated. What I mean is the use of designs and materials that have generally lost favor with manufacturers for any number of reasons. Cast iron bases, tilting tables, exposed bandsaw wheels, stylized castings, 50# miter gauges.

[John Bailey]

I've got a 1959 Oliver bandsaw, 1956 DeWalt RAS, and a 1939 Delta drill press. Basically, in concept, they are the same machines you could buy new. However, their lack of modern convenience, heft and inability of being able to buy anything like them today separates them from their younger siblings. I consider them all "OL' ARN."

John

[Ole Anderson]

Ol Arn is one of the four horsemen.

Wooooooooo!

Hey, keep my brother out of this!

[Mark Ashmeade]

How would you define old iron? For example, I myself wouldn't consider any Unisaw as old iron because the design and build quality is pretty much the same as contemporary machines. Yet, I would consider an American slider from the same era Old Arn because of the outdated design and functionality.

I think it's simply a matter of being old and made of iron. Nothing more needs to be read into it.

Modern manufacturing techniques mean that the build quality is mostly leagues ahead of 1940s stuff. The Unisaw of that era for example had a two-part casing. Ugly steel seams on the front of the machine. Modern ones don't have that. The intermediate design didn't have it either. Modern materials, such as UHMW plastic and Teflon have revolutionized certain features, the rip fence being an example. Fit and finish is generally of a much higher quality today than it was. Computerised drawings, manuals, all add up to a superior ownership experience. Same for bearings, cutterhead designs, safety focus, magnetic switches etc. Now some may prefer a very heavy machine and accept rough castings and open bearings. Others prefer a machine that is heavy enough, but has extra features that may be electronically controlled etc. Even the paint is vastly superior.

I'm not for or against either. I have a Delta longarm 16" RAS that hasn't changed in design since the 40s. I also have a Delta 1460, which is a 1948 model. They sit alongside a Sawstop PCS, which is about as far as you can get from "old arn".

I funded the Sawstop by selling a Powermatic 66 and a Powermatic 72. People laud the 66, and it was a stout machine, no doubt. But the splitter/guard was lacking, the dust collection poor, and the table was pretty small. The SS is about the same size as the 66, has a beautifully smooth rip fence, more iron in the top, and a vastly superior riving knife/guard assembly. There's really no comparison, yet the 66 is held up as being a "best of breed" design. The 72's body was made of fully 1/8" thick steel. Twice as thick as the 66. Very strongly built. Yet they couldn't put the safety stickers on straight, it didn't come with a dust shroud, and all the other shortcomings of the 66. It did however have a huge table and a 7.5HP motor.

Meh. Old arn is fine for some things (like a lathe) but not for others. At least in my shop, which is all I have to keep happy.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["old iron"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it.
—Justice Potter Stewart,

Ok, I just had too

I think it might be different to each of us. The first unisaw is old iron IMHO, the last is not. Where did it change?

[Rich Riddle]

To me old iron predates the 1980's at a minimum. On a different note, I thought all new table saws, including the Unisaw, came standard with riving knives.

[Robert Boyd]

My definition is anything that was made before me(1975), made in North America, and weighs more than me.

Rob who is the current caretaker of a 36" & 26" Silver band saws, two 50's Delta HD shapers, Delta unisaw, two Walker Turner talble saws(cast iron and stamped steel body) and plenty of other hefty items.

[David Kumm]

Mark, I agree if you compare hobby to hobby stuff there isn't a lot of benefit of old over new. The ability to buy industrial grade for the same or less than hobby new is where the market is. The benfit of old vs new is also machine by machine. An old cast iron jointer with a 5 " head and big oil cup bearings is a superior design and quality to any comparably priced new jointer.
Again the lower end old stuff has largely disappeared as will most of the new hobby stuff in a number of years so what we seeing as "old arn" is the higher end of the food chain. I guess I would add to the definition of old arn is equipment that has stood the test of time and still competes favorably or more so with the current competition. Dave

[Mark Ashmeade]

Mark, I agree if you compare hobby to hobby stuff there isn't a lot of benefit of old over new. The ability to buy industrial grade for the same or less than hobby new is where the market is. The benfit of old vs new is also machine by machine. An old cast iron jointer with a 5 " head and big oil cup bearings is a superior design and quality to any comparably priced new jointer.
Again the lower end old stuff has largely disappeared as will most of the new hobby stuff in a number of years so what we seeing as "old arn" is the higher end of the food chain. I guess I would add to the definition of old arn is equipment that has stood the test of time and still competes favorably or more so with the current competition. Dave

I like the point about old low end stuff has gone to the landfill, so all that's left is the higher quality machines, ergo they have stood the test of time.

But I'm not sure about the 5" jointer model. I have a behemoth of a Moak shaper with huge oil cup bearings, a 7.5HP Baldor on it, and I'm practically having to give it away to get rid of it. I would be better off selling the motor, and weighing the rest in as scrap. I can't bring myself to do that, but it would be a sound financial move.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mark, I agree if you compare hobby to hobby stuff there isn't a lot of benefit of old over new. The ability to buy industrial grade for the same or less than hobby new is where the market is. The benfit of old vs new is also machine by machine. An old cast iron jointer with a 5 " head and big oil cup bearings is a superior design and quality to any comparably priced new jointer.
Again the lower end old stuff has largely disappeared as will most of the new hobby stuff in a number of years so what we seeing as "old arn" is the higher end of the food chain. I guess I would add to the definition of old arn is equipment that has stood the test of time and still competes favorably or more so with the current competition. Dave

David, I'm curious about your price quote, what would that old jointer have sold for originally?

Would it be in the order of what you'de pay for a comparable Martin jointer today?

Regards, Rod.