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Thread: Precision Tools in Woodworking

  1. #46
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    Hi Stan, others. Good stuff. To be fair we all seem to be on fairly common ground - that depending on how you work (high tech/ hand tools/mixed) that many methodologies are possible - and that some of these involve right first time/dead reckoning/dimension driven tasks, and others that are much less so/involve creeping up to a dimension or a fit. On the basis that what we tend to regard as 'good' wood work mixes occasions where absolute accuracy is important, accurate repetition and not so much accuracy all play their parts. Bearing in mid of course that commercial volume production woodworking is not at all the same 'work' as the building of one off pieces.

    It'd be nice if we could move on to real world discussion of the various methodologies that people use. Just where do we see the requirement for high levels of accuracy pop up, and what methods/job plans do we use to achieve it?

    Are we objectively/numerically aware of what we are doing, or do we need to be? One of the mags wrote an insightful piece on this issue some time ago pointing out (can't remember the exact words) that hand tools like planes routinely work to within microns - and that if as a hand tool user you want to garner some of the kudos that so called high tech has gained (which methods have their place too) the trick is to start bandying around the same terms and measurements. The differences are in many ways perhaps as much to do with language and subjective feeling as tolerances....

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 02-12-2013 at 1:04 PM.

  2. #47
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    Stanley, good follow up post, too.

    I hope the intensity I "hear" in this thread doesn't get out of control. Provocative posts are fun, but when people get bent out of shape... no fun.
    clamp the work
    to relax the mind

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    I FYI, I not only have a bachelor’s degree in Civil Engineering, I have a masters degree in Structural Engineering (earthquake forces in steel moment frames). I need no lectures about materials science, nor do I need to be reminded of the modulus of elasticity of steel, thank you very much.
    Well, if you want to play that game, I have degree in engineering too. I'm also a professional engineer every day of the week, I teach a masters class in bridge design, and I'm an expert in seismic retrofit design, and engineering materials science.

    As I said before, I'm happy that you have methods of work that suit your needs.
    But I think you take it too far by at least a full order of magnitude.
    Just a suggestion here, but you might be happier sharing your methods of work and how they have helped you and just leaving it at that rather than being offended by others who may disagree.
    Like I said, just a suggestion.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    I still don't understand the need for a micrometer though.
    Well, everyone keeps talking about "need" as though someone claimed that you can't do good work without precision equipment. Instead, I will simply give you just a small sample of what I use my micrometers for.

    1) measure acoustic top/back thicknesses
    2) measure the depth of blind holes to make sure my hardware will fit properly
    3) measure features on hardware so I can select the proper drill bit
    4) measure guitar nut slot widths and or nut widths so I can quickly rough size a nut to the slot
    5) measure fret tang width and compare to the fret slot width I measured with a feeler gauge....this measurement is critical and being off can cause your neck to bow forward or drive the neck into a fatal back bow
    6) measure screws to quickly determine proper through hole clearance
    7) measure string thicknesses to see what a customer is currently using
    8) measure fret heights to determine how much life is left
    9) measure guitar neck thicknesses as I'm carving
    10) measure veneer thicknesses

    And that's just what I happen to remember doing yesterday afternoon. I use them so much that I have several in the shop. One of them, from StewMac, is specially modified to measure fret tang depth and fret heights. Yes, this is very instrument-centric because that's what I do. If I made Morris chairs, I would use it for various things on a Morris chair. Some of these uses are just convenience. Others are because it's not enough to just look right. Sometimes you have to hit a very specific number too. Either way, for smaller items it is sooo much easier and quicker to use calipers than it is to measure with a ruler.

    Oddly enough, I use my calipers often for ROUGHING. For example, I may need to take a bone nut blank that is .200", and take it down to .180" to fit a nut slot. No problem. I have a nice granite plate with sandpaper on it. Flatten one side, and measure the corners. Use differential pressure to bring the other side done flat and PARALLEL (how would you measure that without calipers?). Then gradually bring it down, checking as I go along, until I'm at about .181" - .182" or so. Switch to 600 grit and tweak it until I get a nice snug fit. The whole process takes me just a couple of minutes because I was able to quickly straighten out a blank and rough it to size without constantly stopping to test fit it.

    I also use them to quickly transfer measurements. Measure and lock, and then transfer to wherever I want. I use it to find precise centers. Measure, divide in half, set to the half value and lock. Now I can use the calipers almost like a compass to leave a little mark where the center is.

    Tons of uses...mine is in my hand for something or other all day.

  5. #50
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    These days I like my precision tools because I have a machine shop now,and do have them on hand. Mostly,as I mentioned,I might set up machines with them. I'd like to say that all of the wood work I've posted here was done not only with hand tools,but 18th.C. style hand tools,including wooden squares and wooden planes. The masterpieces you see in museums were indeed done with simple tools,it is true.

    I propose a word limit per post for those who are not contributors.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    Well, everyone keeps talking about "need" as though someone claimed that you can't do good work without precision equipment. Instead, I will simply give you just a small sample of what I use my micrometers for.

    1) measure acoustic top/back thicknesses
    2) measure the depth of blind holes to make sure my hardware will fit properly
    3) measure features on hardware so I can select the proper drill bit
    4) measure guitar nut slot widths and or nut widths so I can quickly rough size a nut to the slot
    5) measure fret tang width and compare to the fret slot width I measured with a feeler gauge....this measurement is critical and being off can cause your neck to bow forward or drive the neck into a fatal back bow
    6) measure screws to quickly determine proper through hole clearance
    7) measure string thicknesses to see what a customer is currently using
    8) measure fret heights to determine how much life is left
    9) measure guitar neck thicknesses as I'm carving
    10) measure veneer thicknesses

    And that's just what I happen to remember doing yesterday afternoon. I use them so much that I have several in the shop. One of them, from StewMac, is specially modified to measure fret tang depth and fret heights. Yes, this is very instrument-centric because that's what I do. If I made Morris chairs, I would use it for various things on a Morris chair. Some of these uses are just convenience. Others are because it's not enough to just look right. Sometimes you have to hit a very specific number too. Either way, for smaller items it is sooo much easier and quicker to use calipers than it is to measure with a ruler.

    Oddly enough, I use my calipers often for ROUGHING. For example, I may need to take a bone nut blank that is .200", and take it down to .180" to fit a nut slot. No problem. I have a nice granite plate with sandpaper on it. Flatten one side, and measure the corners. Use differential pressure to bring the other side done flat and PARALLEL (how would you measure that without calipers?). Then gradually bring it down, checking as I go along, until I'm at about .181" - .182" or so. Switch to 600 grit and tweak it until I get a nice snug fit. The whole process takes me just a couple of minutes because I was able to quickly straighten out a blank and rough it to size without constantly stopping to test fit it.

    I also use them to quickly transfer measurements. Measure and lock, and then transfer to wherever I want. I use it to find precise centers. Measure, divide in half, set to the half value and lock. Now I can use the calipers almost like a compass to leave a little mark where the center is.

    Tons of uses...mine is in my hand for something or other all day.
    Fair enough.

    John and Thomas Seymour, no micrometers:

    http://www.pem.org/sites/luxury/

  7. #52
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    Jun 2008
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    Charlotte, MI
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    1,523
    If you work with machines, you might need these tools. If you work solely with hand tools, you don't need them. You may like to use them and that's fine and good. But please don't make beginners think they are necessary. They aren't necessary, nor are they even particularly useful in my shop. My shop-built wooden squares and straightedges are just fine for my work. But I don't build bridges. And I don't build space vehicles. So I really couldn't care less about micrometers or precision squares.

    As for testing my squares, it is easy enough to scribe a line, then flip the square and eyeball the difference. If my eye says its good, its good enough for hand tool woodworking. For my straightedges, I make two at a time and use them to check each other. It works just fine. No need for a super-precise, accurate to .0000000000000001, $8 million machinists straightedge. For me. If you want it, no big deal.
    Last edited by Zach Dillinger; 02-12-2013 at 10:22 AM.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  8. #53
    Micrometers. you mean something like this don't you?

    vfig10a.jpg

    I also have Vernier calipers and use them often for the reasons you mention. Not because I couldn't do it any other way, just because it is often a handily shaped meassuring tool.

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    Micrometers. you mean something like this don't you?

    vfig10a.jpg

    I also have Vernier calipers and use them often for the reasons you mention. Not because I couldn't do it any other way, just because it is often a handily shaped meassuring tool.
    Digital calipers, actually, but everyone calls them micrometers so I try to do that too. I used to have dial calipers too, and actually prefer those, but they don't seem to hold up well in my shop. I was probably killing a dial caliper every year or so, so I switched to digital. Dial is nice because you get instant feedback...you can see the material give, you can quickly find the widest or narrowest point, etc. I have some micrometers here that I don't use much, but they do get used occasionally.

  10. #55
    Well said.

    I think many beginners (like me on and off for the last 20 yrs) with no formal training, second guess our efforts and get caught up in marketing hype and try to follow paths with hand-tools and machine tools simultaneously. In my limited efforts I notice the use of machine tools requires lots of focus on machine setup and fiddling with precision measuring tools to get the blade the right height or the fence the right distance, etc... In using handtools, (once you know how ) you can easily shave off .002" or better with a plane, and your marking one piece against the next (A very key factor) the flexibility is limitless when compared to machine tools and the accuracy can be significant when you can manipulate feature sizes by several thousandths. Doing this on affordable machine tools is possible (manipulating an existing feature by several thousandths is not easy with most home shop equipment) with good skills, but requires precision setup capability as well.

    Accurately squaring up a shop made square with no precision tools is not only realistic, but something that I think we all should do as hand woodworkers.

    I confess to being a mechanical engineer as well and own number of micrometers (none have or will make it up to my shop). In my shop I have three non-woodworking precision tools. A Starrett dial caliper that I use all the time because it's so quick and convenient, a 3ft piece of flat ground stock (pretty cheap and very straight), and a cheap (but american made) set of 1-2-3 blocks. The 1-2-3 blocks are used all the time for machine tool setup and making safe accurate crosscuts on my tablesaw (I highly recommend them) In full disclosure I also have an 18x24" granite surface plate (very flat, very heavy, and less than $200) left over from an old project and is now used as a sharpening table.

    I'm fortunate enough to have several old Bridge City squares, but at this stage I almost wish I did not so I'd be forced to make my own

    It seems to me there is no need for precision tools in shops that are exclusive to hand tools. I would argue that even a square is a luxury that is not necessary to make precision mortise&tenon joints.

    On the flip side, it's very nice to have precision measuring tools, but it can hamper your path to successful hand-tool work if you rely on those tools and do not develop the skills used for centuries without these machinist quality measuring tools.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Dillinger View Post
    If you work with machines, you might need these tools. If you work solely with hand tools, you don't need them. You may like to use them and that's fine and good. But please don't make beginners think they are necessary. They aren't necessary, nor are they even particularly useful in my shop. My shop-built wooden squares and straightedges are just fine for my work. But I don't build bridges. And I don't build space vehicles. So I really couldn't care less about micrometers or precision squares.

    As for testing my squares, it is easy enough to scribe a line, then flip the square and eyeball the difference. If my eye says its good, its good enough for hand tool woodworking. For my straightedges, I make two at a time and use them to check each other. It works just fine. No need for a super-precise, accurate to .0000000000000001, $8 million machinists straightedge. For me. If you want it, no big deal.
    Last edited by Jim Foster; 02-12-2013 at 11:07 AM.

  11. #56
    Join Date
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    Cedarburg, WI
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    As another "woodworking engineer" - I hope we never arrive at the point where people say, like lawyers, "that there are too many of us".... we need all the engineers we can find, there are just too many problems that need solving.

    I do have to say that I agree with the spirit of Stan's note about a set of "shop set of standards" - I think whether consciously or unconsciously we all know which measuring tools within our shops are "the good ones" and which are "close." Having suffered the results of inaccurate tools that I assumed were good enough I would advise a person starting to invest in a set of shop standards. Stan outlines a straightforward approach to doing this consciously and knowing the quality and tolerances associated with the chosen standard. Myself, I arrived at my set of shop standards more painfully as a result of problems and my solution was less preplanned. I use a square from Woodpeckers, a rule from Bridge City, a Double Square from LV and an inherited micrometer. All used to setup tools, check other tools and use for checking critical work.

    I guess the main point of Stan's note is know the accuracy and limits of your measuring tools and then you are more empowered to consciously design and build to whatever tolerances you choose.

    Cheers - Bill
    Cheers, Bill Fleming

  12. #57
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    Nov 2010
    Location
    Upstate South Carolina
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    I have been taught by a wise person to inspect what you expect. If you expect the joint to come out square and don't inspect the square you laid out the joint with then don't expect the joint to come out square. I know the commonly used method is to get a pipe clamp and force the joint into submission and it will be fine. But wouldn't it just be easier to add some precision to your work and make sure it was laid out and cut square to begin with? All that fussing with the clamps in a rush before the glue sets is a pain.

    Ed
    Last edited by Ed Looney; 02-12-2013 at 11:31 AM. Reason: missing word
    Some claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.

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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Zach Dillinger View Post
    If you work with machines, you might need these tools. If you work solely with hand tools, you don't need them. You may like to use them and that's fine and good. But please don't make beginners think they are necessary. They aren't necessary, nor are they even particularly useful in my shop. My shop-built wooden squares and straightedges are just fine for my work. But I don't build bridges. And I don't build space vehicles. So I really couldn't care less about micrometers or precision squares.

    As for testing my squares, it is easy enough to scribe a line, then flip the square and eyeball the difference. If my eye says its good, its good enough for hand tool woodworking. For my straightedges, I make two at a time and use them to check each other. It works just fine. No need for a super-precise, accurate to .0000000000000001, $8 million machinists straightedge. For me. If you want it, no big deal.
    I can't imagine what good could possibly come out of putting machinist's grade straightedges, dial gauges, etc. on consumer grade woodworking machinery, can you? Nothing will spec out worth a damn. It's just not machined to close enough tolerances or assembled to close enough tolerances. So, what 'ya gonna do at the end of the day? Fire it all up and get to work. That, or get off the merry-go-round and do it like the old guys did which is what you do and apparently do extraordinarily well.

  14. #59
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    Aug 2012
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    Ya know, with a little knowledge of math, you can easily make wooden tools that are precise. *shrug*

    Again, people been working things without super dead-nuts perfect tools for years. Since I use hand tools, this is my opinion. Do I own a square? Yes. Steel straight edge? Yes? Do I think they're dead-nuts perfect? No. But they're in the ball park and probably more precise than the tools I have, and the work I do is for me. I'm the only one that has to be happy with what I build (and my wife, of course). I check flat for "good enough". As is, did I plane a 4" rut in that board? No? I can only see a shimmer of light?

    If someone wants to have gobs and gobs of super-precise stuff to check their other expensive stuff to transfer that precision to other expensive stuff, more power. I'd much rather spend money on lumber and hand tools as opposed to stuff that checks stuff that checks stuff.

    If someone walks into my house and starts inspecting things close enough to see little flaws or "oops" moments, I tell them to stop being an ass or GTFO. :-D
    The Barefoot Woodworker.

    Fueled by leather, chrome, and thunder.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Adam Cruea View Post
    Ya know, with a little knowledge of math, you can easily make wooden tools that are precise. *shrug*

    Again, people been working things without super dead-nuts perfect tools for years. Since I use hand tools, this is my opinion. Do I own a square? Yes. Steel straight edge? Yes? Do I think they're dead-nuts perfect? No. But they're in the ball park and probably more precise than the tools I have, and the work I do is for me. I'm the only one that has to be happy with what I build (and my wife, of course). I check flat for "good enough". As is, did I plane a 4" rut in that board? No? I can only see a shimmer of light?

    If someone wants to have gobs and gobs of super-precise stuff to check their other expensive stuff to transfer that precision to other expensive stuff, more power. I'd much rather spend money on lumber and hand tools as opposed to stuff that checks stuff that checks stuff.

    If someone walks into my house and starts inspecting things close enough to see little flaws or "oops" moments, I tell them to stop being an ass or GTFO. :-D
    Best bloody post in the whole thread.

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