Diamond Paste

[David Weaver]

As an addendum to David's comment about the eze lap. I figured they'd be in line with DMT, but they're cheap compared to most of the stuff out there.

http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-81F-Fi...wnorthwinda-20

And before anyone gets in an uproar, note that link gets there through the creek store (see the tag at the end?), so it kicks back a little bit of coin to the creek if you use it. 8x3 for $37 shipped....not bad.

David, you and bill have been using the same 600 grit plates for quite a while, right? I've got two beat DMTs, I've never been a big fan of them for general sharpening. I did pick up one of the eze-laps above after seeing that price, though.

As we've discussed elsewhere, the 8x3 SF spyderco broken in makes a good base for just about anything (ultra fine diamonds, loose al-ox, chromium oxide, etc , but it works differently because the diamonds are loose on it). And when it's broken in, it's really broken in...like smooth glass. But it's not a budget option compared to anything else.

[David Barnett]

David, you and bill have been using the same 600 grit plates for quite a while, right? I've got two beat DMTs, I've never been a big fan of them for general sharpening. I did pick up one of the eze-laps above after seeing that price, though.

As we've discussed elsewhere, the 8x3 SF spyderco broken in makes a good base for just about anything (ultra fine diamonds, loose al-ox, chromium oxide, etc , but it works differently because the diamonds are loose on it). And when it's broken in, it's really broken in...like smooth glass. But it's not a budget option compared to anything else.

You are correct, sir! Both Bill Tindall and I.

I think I've determined—or at least settled on—my first Eze-Lap 600-grit stone's being 17-years old. And I'm still using it. I've often written about the differences between monocrystalline and polycrystalline fixed-grit diamond honing stones, how they break in, wear, and sharpen. While my purchase predates Bill Tindall's, his quest for a best all-round sharpening method for woodworking tools was entirely independent and far more methodical than my own. Bill decided on a 7" grinding wheel diameter on his own. I bought a 7" grinder on advise of an accomplished hand tools woodworker and teacher, also predating Bill.

Although I started ahead of Bill and more or less have been sharpening with hollow grinding followed by 600-grit diamond stone, then to 1µ diamond on cast iron for nearly two decades, Bill got his sharpening down to a system, a tried and true regimen, while I was still futzing and experimenting will intermediate steps and stones and laps and strops. Bill made it straightforward and easy and I owe to him that clarification.

It's kind of funny—I became interested in faceting gems after I learned to lap with diamond on the Harris Lapping & Sharpening System*—because I learned to lap and sharpen with diamond on that system. I liked scraping, sharpening, and lapping tools so much I migrated to gem cutting as a means to keep doing this all day long, day after day. OCD much? I mean, although I'd buy a tool just to sharpen it, faceting can be considerably more lucrative, less messy and more challenging long-term than sharpening, so there I went.

The Spyderco ceramic is versatile and amazing and we're going to have to explore and describe using it some more. Also, other forms of chert than novaculite—microcrystalline quartzes—even jasper!

A question—I'll ask you as you've straddled the fences between fora on woodworking and shaving alike—is it considered cricket to post a link to a post on another woodworking forum? Or is this bad form? I'd hate to breach protocol or display bad manners that I've worked so hard to hide. It sure would save time repeating myself if I could link to the monocrystalline vs. polycrystalline discussion posted elsewhere.

*http://tinyurl.com/Harris-Lapping-System

[David Weaver]

Yeah, posting links to other forums here is poo pooed. Maybe it is on all of the forums, I just know for sure that it is here. If it doesn't run afoul of other forum rules, you could cut and paste stuff you've opined on elsewhere that's mono vs. poly related. My view of the two is a lot less educated, I just *like* the poly plates a lot better as they wear. They don't become something offputting like worn monocrystalline diamond plates do.

I'd love a discussion of the quartz and jasper, I've got no idea what I'd buy of quartz and I haven't seen a jasper hone in person, or anywhere. In fact, the only place I've seen the term chert used before is fujibato (japanese stone seller whose name usually brings up a lot of opinion), who attempted to use what looked like google-translate stuff to describe how his stones are different than western stones.

[Metod Alif]

Thank you, David Barnett,
for your input. Reading yours and Bill Tindall's posts on another forum, prompted me to retrieve my piece of cast iron. After cutting it up, I began thinking about a large file. As soon as I posted my question, I felt rather foolish. The time spent on typing could be used to actually DO something about it. I went to 'forgotten items drawer' in my garage and found a 12" old bastard file. That night was getting late, but the next day I gave it a try. I am almost done with all five of them. 60 - 70 minutes per plate (I do not mind some effort) and the dip was gone. The first three (OK, slow learner) were a bit convex. My ineptitude on two fronts: not having checked the progress with a straight edge - just zen-staring the dip getting smaller) and not realizing that even such a large and thick file flexes a bit. 2 - 3 light passes (no more than .005") with 1/2" end mill (that's ll I have - would try a fly cutter, if I had one) on my small mill drill, four are done, one to go.
The plates have no adequate reference surface, so it took long to clamp them fairly even with the bit. The 10" pieces protrude 3" from the jaws, so there is some chattering even with light passes for about last half inch on either side. There was no way to accurately reposition the plates in the vice, so I had only one shot. Fear of chattering got me to rule out the mill initially. With light enough passes I would have to spend several hours on flattening. Even so I did a fair amount of hand cranking. Just a little more to go.
I feel rather well about how the plates are turning out.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

David, I see that you offered a very detailed explanation on wood central. I remember the thread, but I completely missed your (very excellent) response in that thread when you posted it.

It would be good here.

[David Barnett]

One of my favorite words of all time and the only thing better than the word itself is its etymology (if it even makes sense that they could be separated).

We'll always have Rep. Felix Walker (1753-1828) to thank for that, and H.L. Mencken for elevating it to its titular prominence, at least in my then-impressionable and adolescent mind, my formative neuro-lexical milieu—On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe, 1956.

I also much like orangery, as well, but living in Florida, have less call for it.

You are a true renaissance man. Any discussion dealing with lapidary supplies and their use in woodworking sails over my head by a very large and safe margin and only serves to accentuate my decrepitude. I did get in one light blow for Team Curmudgeon though, we of dull-edged notoriety.

Oh, I'm hardly that polymathic, but am so loquacious and dabble in enough divers arts to fake it when convenient. Team Curmudgeon is T-shirt worthy, and here in God's Waiting Room West—Boca being GWR East—it has genuine potential where the median age is 68+. I'm 'young stuff' until I hit that mark in a few short years.

I understand a syringe of this stuff should last quite sometime. If Garrett Hack uses it, it can't be all bad. Maybe I could find out who his tailor is too.

If you're going to play with just one grit, I'd jump past Hack's habitual usage to 1µ, nominally 14,000 grit. This'll let you sharpen on finer India, Arkansas and other place-named stones and leap to a fair-to-middling final tour de force on your micro-bevel, should you choose to elevate your edge that slightest bit. Mind you, we're talking freehand here—none o' that namby-pamby jackwagon jigging... although you're free to use one, of course. Free country 'n' all.

And you don't have to start with cast iron, by the way—other substrates can be pressed into service. If you're intent on simultaneously deglazing your stones and sharpening while performing edge tool frottage à la Hack, then 3µ (8,000-grit) may give more authentic results.

At any rate, you'll finally know whether all this hoopla is buncombe and bumfodder.

[David Barnett]

Yeah, posting links to other forums here is poo pooed. Maybe it is on all of the forums, I just know for sure that it is here. If it doesn't run afoul of other forum rules, you could cut and paste stuff you've opined on elsewhere that's mono vs. poly related.

I thought that might be so and can live with it. I quoted myself from another forum's post to Derek but afterwards wondered if that might not be contrary to the spirit of this forum or to the forum where my previous post was archived. Therefore, I'll adopt a segregationist approach to participation on multiple fora.

I will, however, offer the same link here as there to an article discussing the subject with the caveat that while I consider it worth reading, and while it accurately enumerates the advantages of polycrystalline diamond, one should keep in mind that it's published to promote polycrystalline diamond products.

http://www.metallographic.com/Newsle...ewsletter3.PDF

I should also clarify that while I do favor polycrystalline diamond compound, my preference is more strongly focused on polycrystalline nickle-plated fixed-diamond sharpening 'stones' and laps, sintered laps and resin-bonded diamond laps & tools than consumables; loose diamond and diamond compounds or pastes. I use mostly monocrystalline loose and compounded diamond than polycrystalline due to cost and availability—monocrystalline being significantly cheaper (usually) and more readily-available than polycrystalline for consumable diamond products.

I'll further state that consumable monocrystalline diamond films, such as those from 3M, with highly graded and aligned crystals are products with promising crossover appeal and applications and should be considered as a special case.

In other words, it isn't simply polycrystalline (good) vs. monocrystalline (bad)—it's the appropriate use of each on an application-by-application basis.

My view of the two is a lot less educated, I just *like* the poly plates a lot better as they wear. They don't become something offputting like worn monocrystalline diamond plates do.

Often the most sophisticated view is the one gained by experience, and honest preference well-described is hardly a bad thing.

I'd love a discussion of the quartz and jasper, I've got no idea what I'd buy of quartz and I haven't seen a jasper hone in person, or anywhere.

I intend to get to that in the not-too-distant future. I have no slab saw currently so can't yet cut a slice to send to you, but this may change as soon as I find what I want, used, and at a reasonable price.

My way of determining whether stones are suitable for honing is to see if a carbon steel graver makes a streak of any sort without excavating the stone's surface deleteriously through repeated hand-pressured actions. Or more succinctly; leaves a streak, doesn't crack the stone and cleans up nicely. Science is not much involved.

[Charlie Stanford]

We'll always have Rep. Felix Walker (1753-1828) to thank for that, and H.L. Mencken for elevating it to its titular prominence, at least in my then-impressionable and adolescent mind, my formative neuro-lexical milieu—On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe, 1956.

I also much like orangery, as well, but living in Florida, have less call for it.



Oh, I'm hardly that polymathic, but am so loquacious and dabble in enough divers arts to fake it when convenient. Team Curmudgeon is T-shirt worthy, and here in God's Waiting Room West—Boca being GWR East—it has genuine potential in an area whose median age is 68+. I'm 'young stuff' until I hit that mark in a few short years.



If you're going to play with just one grit, I'd jump past Hack's habitual usage to 1µ, nominally 14,000 grit. This'll let you sharpen on finer India, Arkansas and other place-named stones and leap to a fair-to-middling final tour de force on your micro-bevel, should you choose to elevate your edge that slightest bit. Mind you, we're talking freehand here—none o' that namby-pamby jackwagon jigging... although you're free to use one, of course. Free country 'n' all.

And you don't have to start with cast iron, by the way—other substrates can be pressed into service. If you're intent on simultaneously deglazing your stones and sharpening while performing edge tool frottage à la Hack, then 3µ (8,000-grit) may give more authentic results.

At any rate, you'll finally know whether all this hoopla is buncombe and bumfodder.

I'm going to give it a shot right on top the Black Ark. I'll report back, that is if the polish doesn't blind me and I can no longer use the internet. You guys couldn't get that lucky.

[David Barnett]

Bill and I are so very different in how we approach things but we surely do share an appreciation for diamond used on cast iron, and once you try it, you may, too.

I long ago bought another of those Lindsay books on industrial arts on machinist's bench work with hand tools. Files and scrapers and vises were the chief players and I learned a lot. My absolute favorite tools are pairs of little round-leg Starrett machinist's dividers—specifically the 277-2, 2" dividers. My favorite class of tools, however, is rasps and files, and I've made and hand-stitched my own rasps for years.

What can be accomplished with files is amazing. In a German book on goldsmithing, results of filing and sawing exercises for industrial arts & crafts majors in the German secondary-school system are shown. It's stunning to see perfectly filed simple 3-dimensional geometric forms; cubes, cylinders, cones, pyramids, and so on, required to pass to more advanced levels.

Flattening cast iron with a file can go surprisingly fast when one learns that each stroke ideally has a reason, just as each blow from a raising hammer produces a specific effect on a vessel's ultimate form. As you've discovered, files can be more flexible than one might initially suppose and further, that nearly all files have convexity and concavity to varying degrees—features which can be put to good use depending on the forms worked.

While it is nice to have access to blanchard grinders or other large machine tools—I certainly appreciate them, especially now that I'm limited to miniature work with the milling attachment on my Taig lathe—one should not overlook what can be done with simple hand tools, which forms the bulk of my efforts at the jeweler's bench.

I'm glad you're feeling less foolish about flattening your cast iron plates. It's satisfying work with satisfying results. And just think—now your diamond will gain maximum purchase in its ideal ferro-graphitic substrate.

[Steve Voigt]

My favorite class of tools, however, is rasps and files, and I've made and hand-stitched my own rasps for years.

Dear Dave,
I've been intrigued with the idea of hand-stitching a rasp. I have a background in metalwork, and I've watched the auriou video, and it looks pretty straightforward. The one thing I couldn't tell from the video is, what does the pick/punch used to raise the cutting teeth look like? If you have any tips for obtaining or making such a tool, I'd be grateful. Thanks!

-Steve

[David Barnett]

Dear Dave,
I've been intrigued with the idea of hand-stitching a rasp. I have a background in metalwork, and I've watched the auriou video, and it looks pretty straightforward. The one thing I couldn't tell from the video is, what does the pick/punch used to raise the cutting teeth look like? If you have any tips for obtaining or making such a tool, I'd be grateful. Thanks!

First, play the orchestral version of Handel's Sarabande on your stereo...

Then you grind the end of a HSS tool bit until it looks like the homemade stitchers from Noel Liogier, known as grains of barley, due to their shape.

http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/16/38/99/18/grains10.jpg

Not as fancy looking as the one in the video but from the same source. Used with a hammer that encourages striking the punch in an arc toward the stitcher, a tooth is raised. It's all about consistency and control.

Mine's a little different, too, but you get the idea.

[Steve Voigt]

Dang, that picture is exactly what I was looking for. And one of my old HSS lathe bits will work perfectly. Thanks!

[Metod Alif]

David,
You are so rich on the inside. I am very grateful for your sharing of knowledge - especially since you have so much personal experience.
I hope to be done with the last (of five) plate by tomorrow. The milled surfaces are fairly smooth - but maybe not enough for the 1 micron paste.
I still have several O1 irons back from a commercial heat treating facility, that will have to be dealt with. So one of the plates could be used for flattening their backs. So far I got by with a belt sander followed by 220 water stone. Nothing wrong with the schedule, but the paste could be faster. I have yet to buy some in order to experiment.
I would appreciate any suggestion about an efficient choice of grits. Now that I learned about the danger of grit contamination (particularly from Bill's posts on WoodCentral), maybe some of he plates should be left out for the time being.
I sure attained a greater appreciation for files. Much can be done with simple tools if one is willing to contribute some effort.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Barnett]

Kind words, Metod. I'm glad to share whatever I can.

One thing about flattening those heat-treated O1 irons—you may wish to try reserving one of your plates for such flattening work and use silicon carbide as the abrasive. Machinist grade SiC is blocky, cut's quickly, and leaves a reasonably polite finish as it breaks down. Most importantly, you can use the same lap for progressively finer SiC grits until you make the switch to diamond.

It's customary to cut channels into such plates to aid in swarf removal and to maintain flat contact with minimal surface tension as the slurry develops. A diaper pattern's most often seen, which can be milled or cut by hand—it needn't be pretty to be effective.

hts-10550.jpg

While I've used 80 grit SiC to start, 120 grit works well and is nearly as fast and leaves a finer finish that seems better for subsequent finer grits on edge tool backs. As an example, you might move from 120 to 180 to 240 to 400, then to 30µ diamond—maybe 80 to 180 to 400—even 80 to 220 to 45µ diamond. At any rate, the work goes fast and the backs are soon ready for higher grits.

Although I've used loose SiC grit, one can also use oil-based abrasive compound such as sold to gunsmiths (Brownell's) or for lapping engine surfaces. I tend not to switch to diamond until I reach 30µ, or about 600 grit, but lapping schedules are fairly individual processes and what might suit me may differ for you, so use what's comfortable and available.

All that said, your flattening schedule sounds just fine—I'm a big fan of belt sanders/grinders for making and maintaining hand tools and for a lot of other tasks—and come to think of it, apart from showing a couple others how to flatten using hand methods alone, it's been years since I've done so myself and for myself. Time has flown.

As for smoothness of lapping plates, Bill Tindall is happy using his blanchard ground plates with 1µ straight from the machine shop. Wiley Horne uses blanchard ground plates for sub-micron diamond, as well, although admits the break-in period is probably a bit longer than for my scraped-frosted and scraped-polished laps. Although I favor smoother laps for 1µ, ½µ and ¼µ diamond, as it seems to work for others there's no reason it shouldn't work on your laps, as well.

Like Bill, I segregate my diamond to avoid contamination, and use a plated diamond 600 grit stone (Eze-Lap polycrystalline) then use only 1µ loose diamond or paste in the woodworking shop—the lapidary venue employs altogether different protocols. For a sub-micron polish, I use pure chromium oxide powder—not those predominantly aluminum oxide bars with just enough chromium to give them a green color that Lee Valley now sells.

As for starting, I'd likely reserve one plate for SiC flattening and another for 1µ honing, then decide what other grits might be the most useful. My own preferences would likely be, for five plates, one for SiC flattening, one for 1µ, if I didn't have a 600 grit diamond stone—one for 30µ, another for 6µ—often overlooked but terribly useful to me, and the last for ½µ, and since I do have a 600 grit stone, I'd leave one blank for whatever need or experimental urge that might arise.

The above may likely be too idiosyncratic to be truly helpful—your intuition and preferences may lead you to more coarse or more sub-micron—but gives an example based on my thinking and experiences. That's the fun of it—and fortunately, you can change your mind—plates can be resurfaced and redeployed, repurposed.

Oh, I do go on, don't I? Better stop for now, heh.

[Chris Griggs]

RE: Silicon Carbide. Just yesterday I ordered a 1lb pack on ebay of 100 grit for $12 shipped (search 230920848608). The intention being to find a better way to get/keep my oil stones flat (the cinder block just isn't cutting it...[pun intended]) and also use to do any other coarse lapping I have.

Can I put the stuff and lap directly on my granite tile or does in need a piece of mild steel or cast iron? Does it even matter?