HVLP Spray, or do it the old way?

[Julie Moriarty]

I know spraying is the better way to go, but a decent HVLP sprayer seems to run $500+.

Typically, I do all my finishing in the basement. In winter, there is no other choice. In the summer, if it's not too humid, I may finish in the garage or if it's not too windy, outside. There is absolutely no room in the basement for a real spray booth. The best I can do is use waterborne finishes and box fans with filters and that would be done on a covered up pool table.

Right now I have 35 cabinet doors, 9 drawer fronts, 2 wall cabinets and a 54" base cabinet that all need finishing. I will also sand off the old finish on the remaining existing face frames and dye and finish them too. But I'm not so up on spraying anything in the kitchen. I also have a couple of other pieces of furniture that need finishing that haven't been done because I HATE finishing!

I've been doing lots of homework on the benefits of spraying, the methods, the reported effect, etc. I've probably watched a dozen videos too. Right now all I know is I'm going with waterborne dyes and finishes. I was at Woodcraft today and was picking the brain of a guy there who seems to know his stuff about finishing. I left thinking I need to reconsider continuing to do everything by hand. Web research took me to the Fuji Mini Mite. And it seemed everyone was up on the 4 over the 3 even though the only difference mentioned was noise level.

My question, to those non-professionals who own spray equipment, is - Is it worth the cost of buying a new HVLP sprayer, whatever needles one needs, cleaning tools etc AND setting up a temp spray booth and all that involves (and costs) and dealing with the overspray? Is the finish really better? Are you happy you've spent the money?

For those non-professionals who own HVLP equipment, would you do it all over again or not?
And if it's all worth it, which system would you go with, in the not-to-exceed $700 range?

Thanks,
Julie

[Mike Henderson]

You don't have to purchase a full HVLP setup. If you have a compressor, you can use a conversion gun. I bought a couple of Porter Cable PSH-1 guns a while back - I use one for dewaxed shellac and the other for water borne lacquer. At the time I bought them they were under $100 each. You can still find them on eBay but I'm sure people will recommend other brands in the same ballpark. Some people have used the Harbor Freight HVLP conversion guns and have reported good results.

But to the question of whether to spray or not, definitely spray. You'll get a much better finish. I shoot in my garage with the garage door open (I actually spray where the garage door opens) so I don't have a special spray booth. HVLP doesn't give a lot of overspray, especially compared to the old guns.

And regarding how big of a compressor you need. I have a 1HP compressor (old Craftsman) and never have a problem. I've also sprayed at work sites with a pancake compressor, although you need to do big jobs in pieces to make sure you have enough air. The pancakes are LOUD, also so I put it outside and run the hose inside with the door closed as much as possible.

Regarding spray tips, a 1.8 will do shellac and lacquer. I have a 2.0 (or maybe a 2.2, don't remember) that I've used to spray latex paint (thinned). Never felt the need for more.

Mike

[If you're going to use waterborne finishes, it would be good to get some instruction from someone. They're not difficult but the water will raise the grain so the finishing sequence has to take that into account. I usually shoot dewaxed shellac as a sanding sealer, although I'm beginning to look for alternatives. The shellac can really gum up sandpaper. You have to sand after the sealer, or after your first coat of waterborne. If you go through the sequence properly, the finish will be very smooth and fine.
Plain lacquer is good but pre-catalyzed lacquer is tougher. Start with regular lacquer.
Post in the finishing section of this forum and you'll get some good advice.]

[Joe Pelonio]

I have two HVLP guns and both were under $100, and I have 3 compressors so that's no problem. Overspray is not either, with tarps to cover things. Fumes can be a problem indoors. I keep a window or door open some on each end and have a fan blowing out one to suck in fresh air from the other, and wear a mask.

I find that with clear poly I get a nice finish using a good foam brush (not the 20 for $10 Chinese ones) for two coats, then sand and spray only the final coat(s).

[Thomas L. Miller]

Julie,
I made the jump to spraying last spring. I use an LVLP gun conversion gun. I made a simple booth out of 1" foam insulation panels and a really cheap 20" fan. I got the plans from Jeff Jewitt's book Spraying Made Simple. I use waterborne finishes (General or Target). My shop has a garage door that opens and I set the spray booth in it. The booth stores in my garage and takes up about 6" of floor space. The finish is far superior to anything I've gotten with either brush or pad. I've sprayed latex as well with good success. If you have a compressor, you should be able to use a gun. I don't have any overspray with this set up. I have three needles, a 1.4 a 1.6 and a 2.5. All this stuff fits in one drawer when I'm not using it. I'm a convert!
Let me know if you have any questions,
Tom

[John TenEyck]

By all means - spray! Only a padded or wiped on, or rubbed out finish compares to the off the gun results you can get by spraying, and with a lot less work. Like some others, I use low cost HVLP conversion guns that spray great - I'm not a pro so I don't spray everyday, but when I do I want a high quality finish and these low cost guns achieve that. I don't think it matters who's guns - Rockler, Grizzly, HF, Woodcraft, etc., they all appear to come from a common source. As long as you have a modest compressor, they all work fine. My guns don't have SS internals either, but I've had no problems with corrosion with WB products in over 3 years of frequent use. I spray shellac and WB finishes (only) in my basement shop year round. I use a temporary spray booth that takes 10 minutes to set up/take down, and my dust collector fan as an exhaust fan. No over spray gets on my work, and no fumes get into the house. I can show you pics if that's of interest. I've been spraying now for about 3 years, and for large pieces or cabinets it's the only way to go for an excellent finish with minimal effort.

John

[Julie Moriarty]

I've dabbled a bit in waterborne finishes. Years ago I made a chessboard and brushed on a semi-gloss waterborne finish, but the wood was not colored in any way. Recently I was testing Transtint dyes on curly maple. It took me a bit to get the hang of it. What I hated was how messy the Transtint dyes are. I can't even pull the cap off without stain getting on my hands.

As far as raising the grain, I am aware it needs to be done but have never done it on this scale. And I've heard using 220 grit and 320 grit to remove the fuzzies. The guy at Woodcraft said use 220. So I'm not a total newbie there. But I'm nowhere near the experience I have with oil based finishes. Even though I hate finishing, I've got oil based finishes down fairly well.

Now on to conversion guns... I have a 60 gal air compressor in the garage and a pancake compressor in the basement shop. I can run an air hose from the garage into the shop. I had one run into the shop a few years ago. So that's no big deal. I suppose I'd have to install a water separator as the garage is colder (at least now) than the shop.

When I first read about conversion guns years ago, I read that they created a lot more overspray than HVLP turbine system setups. Overspray is a HUGE concern for me! The only area in the basement I can spray is the finished part of the basement. The workshop just doesn't have enough room unless I remove the tools. So overspray could damage light fixtures, a pool table, an oak bar and chairs, a build in cabinet and some furniture. If there's any chance of overspray doing that, spraying is out unless I wait until the weather breaks. And if I did that, might as well go with oil based.

Before dinner I wetted down the oak on the new cabinet and on a sample of mahogany. When I went back to sand down the fuzzies, I found they had raised as expected on the oak but almost not at all on the mahogany. The mahogany only had a few short veins on one side where the grain had raised. Prior to watering, the oak had been sanded from 80 grit to 180 grit. The mahogany had only been planed. So I don't know if the difference in fuzzies coming up was in the wood or the sanding vs. planing.

I also did some test pieces with the ebony dye on oak and medium brown dye on mahogany. I found I had to leave the dye on the oak, and not wipe it off, if I wanted it ebonized. On the mahogany, one coat of dye, wait a few minutes and wipe it off and it looks almost perfect. I just need to compare it to the sapele when both are coated with a finish. I'm starting to feel more comfortable with this unknown.

Thanks all for your help! I'm still in a quandary about the sprayer issue. Maybe I can find a video that focuses on overspray so I can see if it's too much. We have a Graco X5 we bought to spray the house. Think that would do the trick?

John, I just read your post. - Sure! I'd love to see the pics!

[Bill Neely]

Julie, I use a conversion gun but at one time I had a Fuji 4 stage, I didn't notice any difference in overspray. If you decide to use a conversion gun, I would setup the filter seperator as close to the gun as possible. IOW, in the basement and not in the shop garage. I use a combination filter/desiccant unit that has a built in regulator, pressure guage and valve.

I don't have any sort of booth, I cover everything with those cheap plastic dropcloths, get a little airflow going and spray. One thing to note is that wb finishes dry quickly and overspray will be dust before it settles any significant distance from where you are finishing.

I hate finishing but I'd never go back to doing it by hand.

Here's a link to youtube, this guy has a number of videos and is kind of long winded but will probably give you and idea of what the overspray might look like. He's using air assisted airless but the efficiency is about the same as an HVLP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJuD9a8vfu0

He gets to spraying about half way through. I built a turntable like his after watching some of his videos.

[Jack Lemley]

I've dabbled a bit in waterborne finishes. Years ago I made a chessboard and brushed on a semi-gloss waterborne finish, but the wood was not colored in any way. Recently I was testing Transtint dyes on curly maple. It took me a bit to get the hang of it. What I hated was how messy the Transtint dyes are. I can't even pull the cap off without stain getting on my hands.

As far as raising the grain, I am aware it needs to be done but have never done it on this scale. And I've heard using 220 grit and 320 grit to remove the fuzzies. The guy at Woodcraft said use 220. So I'm not a total newbie there. But I'm nowhere near the experience I have with oil based finishes. Even though I hate finishing, I've got oil based finishes down fairly well.

Now on to conversion guns... I have a 60 gal air compressor in the garage and a pancake compressor in the basement shop. I can run an air hose from the garage into the shop. I had one run into the shop a few years ago. So that's no big deal. I suppose I'd have to install a water separator as the garage is colder (at least now) than the shop.

When I first read about conversion guns years ago, I read that they created a lot more overspray than HVLP turbine system setups. Overspray is a HUGE concern for me! The only area in the basement I can spray is the finished part of the basement. The workshop just doesn't have enough room unless I remove the tools. So overspray could damage light fixtures, a pool table, an oak bar and chairs, a build in cabinet and some furniture. If there's any chance of overspray doing that, spraying is out unless I wait until the weather breaks. And if I did that, might as well go with oil based.

Before dinner I wetted down the oak on the new cabinet and on a sample of mahogany. When I went back to sand down the fuzzies, I found they had raised as expected on the oak but almost not at all on the mahogany. The mahogany only had a few short veins on one side where the grain had raised. Prior to watering, the oak had been sanded from 80 grit to 180 grit. The mahogany had only been planed. So I don't know if the difference in fuzzies coming up was in the wood or the sanding vs. planing.

I also did some test pieces with the ebony dye on oak and medium brown dye on mahogany. I found I had to leave the dye on the oak, and not wipe it off, if I wanted it ebonized. On the mahogany, one coat of dye, wait a few minutes and wipe it off and it looks almost perfect. I just need to compare it to the sapele when both are coated with a finish. I'm starting to feel more comfortable with this unknown.

Thanks all for your help! I'm still in a quandary about the sprayer issue. Maybe I can find a video that focuses on overspray so I can see if it's too much. We have a Graco X5 we bought to spray the house. Think that would do the trick?

John, I just read your post. - Sure! I'd love to see the pics!

Julie,

I painted cars in another life long before HVLP was known about anywhere except maybe CA. The guns I was used to put as much finish in the air as on the car (maybe more). I recently picked up an Earlex 5500 for under $300 and some EM9000 waterborne urethane finish from Target Coatings (never used waterborne finish before) to finish a blanket chest I built for my daughter. I am very pleased with the setup! There was almost no overspray that I could tell, the finish laid down well and the gun was very easy to clean up with soap and water. I used the 1.5mm needle, it comes with a 2.00mm needle. Fumes were non existent. I sprayed with shop closed up due to low temperatures outside. Very happy with the results. All that said if I had the dough I would likely upgrade my sprayer to a better unit but for my purposes and occassional use the Earlex 5500 is just fine. My main complaint is the air hose is real stiff difficult to manage.

Jack

[Jamie Buxton]

If you're going to be finishing 35 doors, build yourself some racks to hold the doors after you spray them.

[Jamie Buxton]

I use an HVLP and waterborne finishes intended for spraying -- General now. I don't use a spray booth. I just put a plastic dropcloth on the floor The Fuji HVLP doesn't have a lot of overspray. The finish is starting to dry when it leaves the tip of the gun, and has turned to dust when it gets a few feet from the gun. The dropcloth gets a crusty layer on it, but machinery five feet away just gets a little fine dust.

[Julie Moriarty]

Once again, thanks guys! I have been fighting this mental battle with finishing for a long time. In the past it's been one coat of oil based stain, one coat of sanding sealer, sand lightly and one coat of varnish. I learned that from my grandfather when we were building the house. He also showed me how to clean up brushes. If he was still here, I'd feel a lot better about what I'm about to do.

Since the last post, I laid one coat of the WB satin finish on the dyed mahogany on a test piece. It's okay. I think it may need another coat or two. I sprayed lacquer on the other half of the test piece but that took three coats to give the same coverage as one of the WB finish. I'm surprised to say I like the WB finish more right now.

I also made up a test piece of red oak. I started by hand planing both sides. Then on one side I left half planed and the other sanded over the planing to 180 grit. On the opposite side I sanded half to 220 and the other half to 400 grit, both over planed wood. Then I wetted it to bring out the fuzzies. I actually ran it under the faucet to wet it. Then I lightly dried it, making sure it was still damp. When the piece dried the fuzzies were noticeably absent. When you run your hand over the two sides, there's hardly a nub. On the 400 grit section, it's smooth as glass. None of the sections NEEDED de-fuzzing but a light sanding would have helped all but the 400 grit. Maybe there is something to planing the wood first.

On the sprayer arena, I'm thinking one may be necessary for at least applying the finish to cover the dye. Last night I saw some dye come up on the brush when wiping on the satin finish. FWIW, I'm using General dyes and General Enduro-Var, in satin. If it comes to deciding to purchase a sprayer, I have a kind of phobia about buying "cheap". It seems everything I've bought, thinking only about saving money, I have later regretted and it's only cost me more in the long run. And when it comes to HVLP sprayers, everything I know I've learned in the past month and most of that has been in the past few days. So there's still a ton to learn. But if I'm going to plop down $300 or $400 on a sprayer I may grow to dislike but for a few hundred more I could have something I love using, I'll go with the latter. Because if there's one thing I learned about myself over the years, the bigger the hassle there is in using something, the less I'll use it. So if I buy a sprayer I want to LOVE using it!

BTW - This is my "Spray Room" and some of what I don't want to get wrecked (any more than it already is)

Yes, that's a pool table underneath the piles of wood and that's an ugly 50's style floor we once thought was cool.
The missing tiles in the ceiling are for probing what route I need to take to install 8" duct for the new cooktop downdraft popup vent. Yes, 8" duct is required. What fun!


The mahogany rails & stiles sitting atop a bar that should have drinks on top and people in the seats enjoying the game.
The ductwork under the top, on the left, is part of what will one day disappear above the drop ceiling, hopefully!

Some of the things I picked up in the last couple of days:

• The hose and even handle can get very hot. So the hose should be up to handing the heat and the sprayer handle should be insulated.
• The stock hose can be very still. So it may not be a bad idea to pick up a flexible end hose.
• Overspray usually dries before it settles. I REALLY like that!
• I could probably take 1/2" conduit to make a frame for the temp spray box. Even though I've been retired for a while, I still haven't forgotten how to bend pipe. I just wonder how much I have laying around the house. I may have to go with 3/4". I know I've got that.
• Applying a top coat over WB dye with a brush could cause the dye to separate from the wood. I don't like that!
• Planed wood seems to fuzz far less than wood that's only been sanded.
• Waterborne finishes really don't stink at all. That's a good thing!
• You always pay more for quality - get used to it! But because you pay more, doesn't mean you're getting better quality - Caveat emptor!
• Everyone has their own way of achieving happiness

Thanks again for all your help!

[Larry Browning]

Julie,
If that was the only place I had to do finishing, I would invest in a large roll of plastic (I refer to it as visqueen) and cover everything before I started spraying. I have a hvlp conversion gun and have never had or used one of the self-contained units, so I can't speak of those. But I can tell you that there is some over spray that will get in the air and it will settle on everything in that room. I have a dedicated shop with an area used for finishing so I don't worry too much about the small amount of over spray produced.
I can also tell you that for me spraying is WAY faster that brushing and the learning curve is very steep (meaning fast and easy) (don't get me started talking about shallow and steep learning curves). If you had a proper place to spray you would love it. But I am afraid that having to use that room will really be a hassle to setup, and you may not think it is not worth it. That's my 2 cents.

[Gary Hodgin]

Julie,
I have a couple of older hvlp turbines. One is an Apollo 800 (3 stage 5.5 psi) and the other is an Apollo 1000 (4 stage 8 psi). I also have a small 13 gal compressor and a Walcom Slim STM hlvp gun I got from Homestead Finishing several years ago. I use it for small stuff. There weren't as many quality hvlp systems when I got my 800 although I got both of mine at woodworking shows at a discount. Apollos are real good systems but there are some others that are significantly cheaper that people are happy with. The cheapest (and very good) way to go would be an hvlp conversion gun with your existing compressor. The advantage of a turbine is portability and simplicity, although cleaning is a bummer with any spray system. Of course, cleaning brushes and rollers isn't fun either.

I do most of my spraying in my garage with the garage door open (or at least partially open) and a light fan several feet behind me. None of my stuff creates significant overspray but I spray WB almost exclusively. The exception is shellac with the Walcom on a small project such as a box. I built a knock down spray similar to this one. Mine is simpler. Just 3 sheets of pink insulation duct taped, a filter and cut out for a box fan, and a sheet of insulation taped over the top. I put some of that cheap Home Depot plastic drop cloth down and just throw it away when finished.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-t...ray-booth.aspx

[John TenEyck]

Julie, I would not spray in that room w/o a temporary spray booth. As some mentioned, HVLP guns have low overspray, but it's not nothing, and there are VOC's even with WB finishes and they are not healthy for you or anyone else in the house. The good news is a temporary spray booth takes care of both issues and is dead simple to make. Here's a picture of my very crude and very effective setup.

IMG_5970.JPG

It's just 6 mil plastic draped from the floor joists, with old bed sheets on the floor. A couple of sawhorses hold a lazy susan turntable that I set my work piece on. Notice the double 40 W fluorescent directly overhead. You have to have good light to see what you're doing when spraying. OK, overspray is carried away from the back of the booth.

IMG_5971.JPG

This is actually my old setup that used a squirrel cage fan of about 400 CFM. It exhausted out a window behind the booth. It worked well enough, but I wanted more CFM so I adapted my dust collector fan to the task. With its 1200 cfm I have no issues with overspray or odor no matter how long I spray.

IMG_7212.JPG

This is the fan. The inlet goes to the back of the booth, the outlet out the window.

IMG_7213.JPG

I spray both shellac and WB finishes and it works great. I would not spray solvent based finishes (besides shellac) with this setup.

You can see one of my cheap guns in the first picture. Trust me, you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on a conversion guns to get excellent results. The Grizzly, Rockler, Woodcraft, even HF guns all produce a beautiful finish. Something with an orifice around 1.5 mm will spray most any WB clearcoat and shellac w/o problems. I have a 60 gal compressor in my garage, about 50 feet away from my spray booth. I just run a 1/2" hose from it into my shop. The dirt/water separator is on the tank; I have no trouble with contamination at the gun. I use those little in-line water/oil/dirt separators at the gun inlet to catch anything that gets through the unit at the tank, but have never seen anything in it. I do drain the tank and filter at the tank before I spray, but never have to again even if I spray for hours that day, Summer or Winter.

I learned right away with WB finishes that they tend to raise the grain on woods like oak. I found the best way to deal with that is to use a finishing strategy that prevents it from happening to begin with. To do that I either use an oil based stain first or I spray on a coat of SealCoat shellac. I've never had any bonding problems with WB topcoats over oil based stain as long as I let the stain dry completely - at least 48 hours, preferably longer - before topcoating. In any case, both these put a sealer between the WB topcoat and the wood so there is no problem with them raising the grain.

As you found out WB topcoats will easily pull up water soluble dyes like Transtint. This is another reason to spray. BTW, I don't use water with Transtint dyes since it will cause the grain to raise; I use DNA instead. Transtint works great in DNA and it is just as easy to apply as in water, plus it dries very quickly so you can move on in your finishing process in less than an hour. I also like to spray on the dye for large pieces. It's just easier to control than wiping/brushing etc. If I spray it on I also start with a diluted dye mix and spray on multiple coats. This lets me sneak up on the final hue and also lets me put on more coats where needed and less where not. Anyway, once the dye is done you have two choices to seal it. You can either apply an oil based sealer, like Seal-A-Cell, anyway you like, or you can spray on a WB product or shellac. You can't apply the WB product or shellac by brushing w/o pulling up some of the water/DNA soluble Transtint dye, but you can avoid it if you spray it on.

I hope what I've described conveys to you that spray finishing is not hard to set up in almost any environment and that it is worth doing so that you can spray indoors, year round. I also hope I showed you that it doesn't have to cost much to do it safely and with excellent results.

I'll leave it with this photo to show you that I'm not full of BS. This cabinet was made out of BORG birch plywood and solid maple, sprayed with a toner of Transtint dye and shellac/DNA, and topcoated with GF's Hi Perf. Poly Satin.

IMG_5557.JPG

John

[Gary Hodgin]

Julie,
John's setup seems to be a good one. It reminded me of something I looked at a couple of years ago. A Zipwall seems to work well for some. Good option if you need to move it around. There are some you tube videos on zipwall.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cata...gry=Search+All