The Real Truth About Dyes

[Jery Madigan]

When using darker dyes, then applying 3 coats of satin Enduro Var, I've been pleased with the grain pop on the sapele. It matches what I was able to accomplish with oils and solvent based finishes and there's no yellowing. But with no dye or with lighter dyes the pop wasn't there. Now that may just be specific to sapele. I do plan on doing some tests on figured maple, but not until the current project is done.

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First, a lot of well-known experts recommend gloss for all but the last coat to avoid get any muddy results. I think there are some online articles that I don't have time to find. Second, I have tried Enduro and the wood color has not been as rich as with a treatment of oil first. It looked Ok with things like Walnut burl that have so much variation that is was not lost noticeably in the process. Your sapele may fall in that catgory - did you do side by side comparison? That is what I have done.

[Chris Padilla]

I used NGR dye from Behlens to get lighter sapwood walnut to match the dark, chocolate color. I also used the same color dye to get the redder walnut more chocolate.

NGR (non-grain raising) dyes are water-soluble dyes dissolved in some form of alcohol (ethyl, methyl...something like that).

At first, I tried to just focus on the sections of the wood I wanted coloring but I found out that slopping it on everything worked out very well and brought it all to a nice even color. I just used a sponge...worked great!

I then topped the whole project off with a few coats of shellac and the walnut came to life...still looks good today. See it here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92396

[Julie Moriarty]

NGR (non-grain raising) dyes are water-soluble dyes dissolved in some form of alcohol (ethyl, methyl...something like that).

Ether. But you only need that for powered dyes like Transfast. TransTint, a liquid, doesn't require using an ether solution. Effectively, it's already been done.

I'm enjoying the experimental process of finding the right tones, but if I was doing this for a bid job, this stage of the work would be killing my profits. It's very time consuming, if you want to get very accurate results to compare side-by-side. Everything has to be finished just like you plan to finish the project pieces. I can see how being a professional finisher would require one to have lots of protected storage space to store the pieces you're working on while they cure.

[John TenEyck]

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First, a lot of well-known experts recommend gloss for all but the last coat to avoid get any muddy results. I think there are some online articles that I don't have time to find. Second, I have tried Enduro and the wood color has not been as rich as with a treatment of oil first. It looked Ok with things like Walnut burl that have so much variation that is was not lost noticeably in the process. Your sapele may fall in that catgory - did you do side by side comparison? That is what I have done.

The experts may be well known, and they may recommend it, but they are wrong about gloss for all but the last coat. My own comparative tests showed no difference whether I used satin for every coat or only the last, at least for the products I tested. I also think I read something somewhere that busted that myth, but I can't remember where it was.

John

[Alan Lightstone]

I work with TransTint dyes and Sapele all the time, Julie. Really like the combination. You've gotten some very good advice above. Let me see if I can help a little too.

I typically use this cocktail combination for my NGR dye on sapele (YMMV, void where prohibited by law, IANAL, etc.):
50 drips Red Mahogany TransTint Dye
50 drops Dark Vintage Maple TransTint Dye
250 ml Denatured Alcohol
250 ml Lacquer Thinner

Using Waterlox over this as a wiping stain warms it up some more, adds that wonderful chatoyance, and makes the wood pop like crazy. Everyone is in love with the look of the final project.

TransTint, on their web site, recommends that 1:1 Denatured Alcohol / Lacquer Thinner Mixture to make an NGR dye.

Drafting-Table-Legs.jpg
(Ignore the lack of uniformity of color from the top to legs above, it's a photography issue, not the piece.)

I wipe the stain on quickly soaking it. Speed and total coverage is the key. Then let it dry. I typically use two coats.

Anyway, my $0.02. Don't give up on the dye. I can't imagine not using it.

[Alan Lightstone]

Since you ask, my experience has been great with dyes.

I agree transtint is messy. I don't use the tip; I unscrew and use a pipette.

My favorite method now is:

1) Mix the dye at +/- 1% in a 50/50 blend of Dipropylene Glycol Methyl Ether + Methoxy Methyl Butanol. Flood it on with a foam brush, and then wipe off excess with a shop towel. These solvents do not raise the grain at ALL and dry sufficiently slowly to allow the dye to be moved around and avoid lap marks and spots. They dry a little slower than water. 12-24 hours drying recommended.

2) Mix the dye at +/-1% in a 50/50 blend of ethanol and acetone. Spray the piece to get more depth. The acetone makes the dye dry almost immediately on impact.

Prashun, your college years are showing. LOL. That's OK. I use syringes to measure and pour finishes out of large cans all the time.

Where do you get the Dipropylene Glycol Methyl Ether and Methoxy Methyl Butanol. You don't think you could just leave that one hanging there, could you?

Also, with that Acetone mixture, do you really want dye evaporating that fast? I thought the point was to have it soak in to the wood sufficiently.

What's the real truth about dyes. You asked for our thoughts so here are mine.

Shellac is the safest of all finishes if you mix flakes with Everclear you can drink it as a pick me up.

ROTFLMAO

[Prashun Patel]

Alan, i work with those solvents in my line of work. Proper solubility and volatility of diffenrent solvents is important to our products.

mmb and dpm evaporate slowly. Way slower than ethanol. This is what makes them perfect for soaking dye in like you say. However, i find that spraying dye with acetone subtly increases the intensity with each coat, which makes it a great putter to the dpms driver.

[Chris Fournier]

Dyes are simple to use, you simply must be precise and methodical. I mix full strength anilines and then mix colours and/or dilute to get the results I want. Sometimes a one shot colour is the trick but layering usually works best for me.

[Peter J Lee]

I use the transtint measured with an eye dropper and mixed with H2O.

[Curt Harms]

Alan, i work with those solvents in my line of work. Proper solubility and volatility of diffenrent solvents is important to our products.

mmb and dpm evaporate slowly. Way slower than ethanol. This is what makes them perfect for soaking dye in like you say. However, i find that spraying dye with acetone subtly increases the intensity with each coat, which makes it a great putter to the dpms driver.

I wonder if these are something Jeff Jewitt et. al. should carry. Are they safe to handle without extraordinary precaution? Available in small -500 ml. - quantities to Joe Q. Public?