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Thread: Carbide powder for waterstones flattening

  1. #1
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    Carbide powder for waterstones flattening

    Hi,

    Just question - I have a Sigma Select II waterstones - 1000 and 6000 grits. Decided to use silicone carbide powder for waterstones flattening. Read Shapton's recommendations regarding choosing car bid powder grit for stone grit.

    What carbide powder grain size (grit) will be suitable for this above mentioned stone?

    Main reason is following - here in Ukraine where I live The minimal lot which can be sold is 1 kilogram. Carbide powder is not overpriced (different grits price is near 15 USD for 1 kilo) but I don't like to buy for example 12 different grits = 12 kilo of abrasive for flattening 2 stones.

    So which sizes (grits), probably 2-4 grits will be optimal for waterstones 1000 and 6000 grits flattening.

    Thank you,
    Georg.

  2. #2
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    I'd suggest something around #240-400 for the #1000 stone and it should take care of the #6000 as well, although the surface left behind might be a little rough.

    Also make sure the loose grit rolls around and isn't allowed to bite into the substrate.

    Stu.

  3. #3
    I agree with Stu. For many years I have flattened all my waterstones with 400 grit carbide. Only a month ago did I bite the bullet and buy a Diasharp flattening stone. The loose carbide works fine, it's just a little more messy.

  4. #4
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    for less than 60$ shipped you can get an Iwood 300 diamond plate for TFJ and it will be all you need. why someone would want the mess of loose carbide I don't know.

  5. #5
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    Thank you for all. Especially many thanks to Stu. I should clarify my question to Matthew. I'm living in Ukraine, a lot far from US and Japan, where lives Stu with wanderfull toolsfromjapan shop.
    For the price of silicone carbide powder I was oriented to the following page http://ua.sapphire.ru/vcd-247/catalog.html
    It's for Ukrainian citizens only these prices. For example, the priciest silicon carbide powder Green Silicon Carbide M5 (F1200) cost per 1 kilo 131 UAH that equals 16,4 USD. And piece of glass will cost 2 USD.
    So the main reason is the price. The second option to carbide powder is that my wife will be able to use it for kitchen knife sharpening and for something else, but she will not touch carbide powder. ;-))

    Regards,

    Georg.

  6. #6
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    I understand the cost thing, the reason I mention it is that for me a diamond plate has been so comfortable I find it irreplaceable, and worth every $$, though it's not THAT expensive, 60$ is how much it costs Including shipping. maybe you could find something local, I know that where I am (Israel) they are very expensive.


    in any case you should do what works for you, I've used silicon carbide power several times to lap old metal plane soles, I hate the mess it makes, and I used a lot of toilet paper cleaning up the grit. considering how often I flatten stones, especially when I had soft Kings, I would never think it to be worth the saving over a diamond plate, but that's just how I feel about it.

  7. #7

    Simple and cheap

    Just use wet/dry sandpaper. I've done this for years with no problems and minimal cost.

  8. #8
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    Hi Chris,

    Just an opinion, but not my, about using sandpaper. In Russia lives a master Nikolay Korshenin. Of course, I can provide link to Youtube seminar about grinding and honing of woodworking tools http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2CC67F5C668CED14
    but there are 4 parts, each - near one hour and in Russian only.
    So, Nikolay is very experienced person, speaks well Japan and triyed a lot of differents Japanese waterstones, natural and man made.
    He is very well known in Russian speaking knife community due to practical knowledges and recommendations.

    Upon Nikolay, if you have soft waterstones, sandpaper flatening will be enough good. But if you have any kinds of hard waterstones, in above mentioned link he spoke about Shaptons, effect of flatening with carbide powder will be better.

    When on flatten with carbide powder we have (let's imagine) three hard layers
    1) waterstone
    2) carbide powder
    3) lapping plate or glass
    with water of course
    And flattening goes enough smoothly because all three layers are hard.

    When we flatten with sandpaper we have FOUR layers - three hard and one soft, and this soft layer goes like a rubber

    1) waterstone
    2) carbide powder glued to a sheet of paper
    3) glue + paper of sandpaper
    4) lapping plate or glass

    In this system the layer consists from glue + paper is a soft, like rubber, and grains of carbide powder make a little jumps down when we press to sandpaper by waterstone and high when we take of waterstone.
    This is, upon Nikolay, is not good for hard waterstones.

    Second negative.

    When on flatten waterstone with free carbide powder on a lapping plate or glass at the first all carbide powder grains are the same size. When the flattening progresses all these graines become disrupted and smaller and smaller. But this happens with the most part of abrasive we using to flattening and we have a smooth action of abrasive, but without clogging.

    When on latten waterstone with a sandpaper, some abrasive grains stay glued to the paper, become dull but not disrupt. The quantity of free carbide grains are smaller so we have a less of action - bigger time to flatten and more clogged sandpaper sheets.

    But this, upon Nikolay, valid for hard stones only.

    Probably this hard to read with my English, but I did the best of my.

    Regards,
    Georg.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Zudoff View Post
    Hi Chris,

    Just an opinion, but not my, about using sandpaper. In Russia lives a master Nikolay Korshenin. Of course, I can provide link to Youtube seminar about grinding and honing of woodworking tools http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2CC67F5C668CED14
    but there are 4 parts, each - near one hour and in Russian only.
    So, Nikolay is very experienced person, speaks well Japan and triyed a lot of differents Japanese waterstones, natural and man made.
    He is very well known in Russian speaking knife community due to practical knowledges and recommendations.

    Upon Nikolay, if you have soft waterstones, sandpaper flatening will be enough good. But if you have any kinds of hard waterstones, in above mentioned link he spoke about Shaptons, effect of flatening with carbide powder will be better.

    When on flatten with carbide powder we have (let's imagine) three hard layers
    1) waterstone
    2) carbide powder
    3) lapping plate or glass
    with water of course
    And flattening goes enough smoothly because all three layers are hard.

    When we flatten with sandpaper we have FOUR layers - three hard and one soft, and this soft layer goes like a rubber

    1) waterstone
    2) carbide powder glued to a sheet of paper
    3) glue + paper of sandpaper
    4) lapping plate or glass

    In this system the layer consists from glue + paper is a soft, like rubber, and grains of carbide powder make a little jumps down when we press to sandpaper by waterstone and high when we take of waterstone.
    This is, upon Nikolay, is not good for hard waterstones.

    Second negative.

    When on flatten waterstone with free carbide powder on a lapping plate or glass at the first all carbide powder grains are the same size. When the flattening progresses all these graines become disrupted and smaller and smaller. But this happens with the most part of abrasive we using to flattening and we have a smooth action of abrasive, but without clogging.

    When on latten waterstone with a sandpaper, some abrasive grains stay glued to the paper, become dull but not disrupt. The quantity of free carbide grains are smaller so we have a less of action - bigger time to flatten and more clogged sandpaper sheets.

    But this, upon Nikolay, valid for hard stones only.

    Probably this hard to read with my English, but I did the best of my.

    Regards,
    Georg.
    Georg,

    I've been trying to tell these folks for years the same thing, but still the sandpaper gets mentioned regularly without also telling us what stones the sandpaper is being used to flatten.

    Maybe they will listen to you because you're not selling anything...

    (But I doubt it.)

    Good luck with the flattening, and the stones you have.

    Stu.

  10. #10
    You did a masterful job of replying to me Georg!

    First let me state that all of my waterstones are at least 10 years old, no combo stones present. I believe that they are Sun King, or Tiger and whatever LV re-brands. Are these stones soft or hard? I hope that you're referring to the bonding agent when you discuss soft/hard.

    What I can tell you is that I use a bench grinder for all of my western style blades. I have done this long enough to move very quickly with no burning, rarely do I use water to cool the tooling. I do dress my wheels regularly so they are in optimal condition.

    Off the grinder I move to my waterstones. I run up the grits from 800/1200/4000/6000/8000 depending on the intended use of the cutting edge. The stones are soaked and I use a nagura slurry on the finest grits. Once again I move very quickly to a honed edge that is ready for work.

    I maintain my waterstones on a granite inspection surface using wet/dry paper. Simple as that. I also use this set up to flatten plane blades and soles - bonus.

    This discussion of rubber layers and uniform/non-uniform reduction in the size of abrasive particles is interesting and at an inmeasurable level might have some merit but in reality it is theoretical nit-picking (I love nit-picking myself, it leads to many interesting conversations - I'm throwing no stones!).

    As soon as I hear that someone is willing to lap on glass, I think that there are geater problems in their sharpening system that fixed or free abrasive particles.

    Most importantly I think, it is essential to maintain your sharpening system more often than not. If you are suspecting that your waterstone is not flat and negatively affecting your sharpening you should have flattened the stone 10 minutes ago! Flattening a waterstone rarely takes me more than a minute. Perhaps you will tell me that my stones are soft as chalk.

    Not to beat up Stuart who sells sharpening items but the reality of this whole sharpening business is that a set of stones/grinding wheels etc. will last an avid woodworker many years, if not a life time. This makes for a very difficult business model; either people purchase product because they are trying out a new sharpening system, or they are replacing infrequently worn out, used up components. The only way grow sales significantly is to sell ancilliary products like diamond lapping plates or convince users that the latest stones are impossibly superior to the ones you currently own. This is the one two thrust of marketing.

    Some folks have to keep experimenting with their sharpening set ups, others find a system that works and get on with the task of using sharp tooling. For the most part what I have observed is that folks that continually alter their sharpening regimen typically do not sufficiently develop the skill to make their current set up work - the dry bench grinder>Tormex>worksharp progression. Purchases of new equipment are made in the hope of finally being able to sharpen tooling.

    I would suggest keeping it simple, tidy and as inexpensive as you can as there are lots of things to spend money on!

    As Stuart said: "Good luck with the flattening, and the stones you have."
    Last edited by Chris Fournier; 04-07-2013 at 12:31 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Tierney View Post
    Georg,

    I've been trying to tell these folks for years the same thing, but still the sandpaper gets mentioned regularly without also telling us what stones the sandpaper is being used to flatten....
    Stu, what exactly have you been trying to say (I'm not at all sure I understood what Georg said)? Not to try to use sandpaper to flatten hard stones?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Curtis View Post
    Stu, what exactly have you been trying to say (I'm not at all sure I understood what Georg said)? Not to try to use sandpaper to flatten hard stones?
    That is correct. Do not use sandpaper for hard 'water' stones.

    Stu.

  13. #13
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    If you get old oilstones, they are frequently dished substantially and also need flattening. When I tried alumina sandpaper, it wore out almost instantly without doing much. Silicon carbide grit sprinkled on the spent sandpaper then worked to quickly abrade the stones, getting them close to flat. The grit that worked cost a small fraction of the paper that didn't.

    I don't suggest this to compare with other substrates that likely will make stones flatter, but in agreement that loose grit is much faster than sandpaper for flattening hard stones in my experience as well.

  14. #14
    Yeah, oilstones and sandpaper don't mix.

    If you can put on a dust mask and use a belt sander, you can get most of the way there, but you'll still have to finish with something.

    I was an original suggester of sandpaper on shaptons in lieu of something better (like diamond plates), but I have to agree that it is suboptimal if the sandpaper leaves anything in the surface. Given that loose silicon carbide grit is about $5 a pound, it's a better stopgap (permanent solution if you have somewhere you can tolerate the mess) than sandpaper.

    Some of the inexpensive diamond plates on the fine stones are also suboptimal (they can leave loose stuff in the surface of a shapton finisher, for example - or really any stone).

    But where you can get suboptimal results with shaptons and sandpaper, oilstones and sandpaper is a nonstarter. Sandpaper needs speed and a light touch, it doesn't do well under pressure with any hardness (the same is true about buying expensive blue or purple paper to hand lap irons, etc, they will crush it quickly despite how long it lasts when it's moving under the power of a belt sander).
    Last edited by David Weaver; 04-08-2013 at 4:39 PM.

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