Pure Indulgence - Waiting for Customs

[David Weaver]

As sort of a last indulgence (until the next one, I guess), one of the other enablers on here mentioned to me that he had dug up a few chisels made by one of the very highly respected tokyo makers who is now deceased. Kiyotada. That name won't ring a bell with most people because it's not pitched by japan woodworker or imported by harima enterprises.

At any rate, said enabler sent me one at cost (which I'm thankful for), and it's probably sitting in a bin at JFK at this point (japan post sends everything fast, even economy. Customs JFK isn't always so fast about getting it into the USPS here).

It is one of these linked (a single chisel, not the set), and I definitely did not order it from So, as it's hard to even get a hold of So, #1, and #2, so's pricing policies and my buying policies don't ever have any overlap.

http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Kiyot...da_Tataki.html

So (no pun intended), what's the big deal about tokyo smiths? There were at least at one point, smiths in tokyo who were very competent with white #1 steel. If chisels are made properly with it, it's probably unmatched by anything for edge holding. if they aren't, then they are no better than run of the mill white #2 chisels that cost about $60, and maybe worse. I have an imai timber framer that's definitely no better than a white #2 chisel, which makes it a pain to use. It is something you would use only on large mortises, anyway (like chopping out a plane). Imai is well known as a good smith of white steel, so it's likely that I was just unlucky.

I don't have any fear that I'm encouraging someone to go buy extremely expensive tokyo smith tools if it arrives and it really is superb, because all of the tokyo smiths are deceased or retired.

But it will add an interesting point of reference, because Kiyotada is a known maker who was able to produce extremely hard chisels that are not brittle. And because of the context that there are a lot of new steels that are being promoted as ultimate chisel steels, I'm not sure I believe that any of them are better than a top of the line carbon steel chisel. It does satisfy a curiosity of mine, to see what the best of the best work really is. Work that isn't intended to be produced several thousand at a time, and work that isn't designed with thoughts about supply volume, etc.

I don't doubt that very few people are interested in this kind of stuff, but for the few that are, I can hardly resist indulging us.

[Chris Griggs]

When you get it I want to see some pics of you using it to chop out a plane mortise.

[Rick Fisher]

Love this post. I have Tasai Mokume paring chisels with Ebony handles. 3 chisels = $1500 USD ..

I love that Japanese chisels are known by the smith and not the brand ..

Hope you do a full report when they arrive .. I am jealous and curious ..

[Chris Griggs]

Love this post. I have Tasai Mokume paring chisels with Ebony handles. 3 chisels = $1500 USD ..

I love that Japanese chisels are known by the smith and not the brand ..

Hope you do a full report when they arrive .. I am jealous and curious ..

Dang it ...your and Dave's stupid posts just made me antsy to get my (no where near as pricey but still very cool) Koyamaichi parers....I have to wait for them to be made (which I knew when I ordered them, and of course, made to order is pretty cool), but that doesn't make waiting any easier.

I remember when you got your Tasai's, didn't they get tied up in customs for like 3 months....that musta sucked....at least once mine are made they're likely to arrive pretty quickly.

[David Weaver]

I'll do that (mortise video).

there was a video posted on WC last year, mahogany masterpieces. There was a now-deceased dai maker in the video at the very end of one of the segments taking enormous amounts of macassar ebony out of a dai with a gigantic hammer. I can't find the video now. He was clearly not using something sold for $60 to the export market.

I have never struck anything short of a splitting wedge hard enough to remove wood the speed he did. And I don't have a flat faced hammer big enough to do it now.

Imagine that most of the kiyotada stuff is set aside if it's found new now, but I don't intend to ever buy any tool with that kind of intention.

[Chris Griggs]

....I'm encouraging someone to go buy ....extremely expensive... tools

Dave, I think you had a typo in your original post. I edited above to say what I think you meant to say.

[Chris Griggs]

I'll do that (mortise video).

there was a video posted on WC last year, mahogany masterpieces. There was a now-deceased dai maker in the video at the very end of one of the segments taking enormous amounts of macassar ebony out of a dai with a gigantic hammer. I can't find the video now. He was clearly not using something sold for $60 to the export market.

I have never struck anything short of a splitting wedge hard enough to remove wood the speed he did. And I don't have a flat faced hammer big enough to do it now.

Imagine that most of the kiyotada stuff is set aside if it's found new now, but I don't intend to ever buy any tool with that kind of intention.

Sweet! I look forward to your video.

I think I saw that video you mentioned...he made it look sooo easy!

[David Weaver]

Love this post. I have Tasai Mokume paring chisels with Ebony handles. 3 chisels = $1500 USD ..

I love that Japanese chisels are known by the smith and not the brand ..

Hope you do a full report when they arrive .. I am jealous and curious ..

Tasai is one of the few left where a serious tool dealer will tell you that his chisels are still quality. In this case, said enabler was able to find kiyotadas similar to what tasai's stripped down stuff costs.

They are definitely different style, the one I can get my dirty fingers on is very nondescript like the ones in so's picture.

[David Weaver]

Sweet!

I think I saw that video you mentioned...he made it look sooo easy!

If anyone knows where that video went, I'd be curious to see it. I know mark hennebury was hosting it off of his site, but I can't find it.

[Rick Fisher]

Good for you Dave.. Use the chisels. I think if your first love is tools, you keep the chisels new.. if your first love is woodworking, you use the chisels.

I am really curious. I want a set of Bench chisels in the future and had planned on Tasai or Kuneki .. but I am really interested in yours .. I don't have as much knowledge as you, never heard of this fella.. but you peaked my interest.. lol

[Mel Fulks]

Looking forward to your review of the chisel,David. Wholesome vicarious fun!

[David Weaver]

I found it. Literally the last minute of this video. Look at the hammer Makes my shoulder ache just watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KaeQ...ature=youtu.be

The first maker is ouchi, the last maker is the dai maker (hisao tanaka). I can't tell who the plane iron maker is in the middle (just heard miyamoto masao).

I've never heard of the plane iron maker, I'm sure the stuff is good, but I do recall also that the maker of the video was selling the tools, too, so finest might have meant "finest" the maker of the video was selling. (a little google work does confirm that he's well regarded).

The whole video is excellent, and gives you a sense that the makers are not sitting around on their duffs scheming how they can get westerners to buy falsely advertised machine made tools.

[Chris Griggs]

Holy cow! No, that's not the one I saw, but that is really cool. I can't believe how quickly easily he knocks those chunks of wood out. Thanks for finding that.

[David Weaver]

All of the guys do precise work at speed. Something we don't see a lot of. Around 42 minutes or so, the dai maker comes in and though there's otherwise not a lot of interesting stuff going on as he cleans up the blocks of wood, it's cool to see how quickly he handles the dais. In and out of clamping, check, back in the clamp, plane, check...etc.

When stan covington was describing precision and checking and testing yourself for speed and accuracy (the stuff that he took such a browbeating over), I'd imagine that this is what he had in mind.

[Charlie Stanford]

As sort of a last indulgence (until the next one, I guess), one of the other enablers on here mentioned to me that he had dug up a few chisels made by one of the very highly respected tokyo makers who is now deceased. Kiyotada. That name won't ring a bell with most people because it's not pitched by japan woodworker or imported by harima enterprises.

At any rate, said enabler sent me one at cost (which I'm thankful for), and it's probably sitting in a bin at JFK at this point (japan post sends everything fast, even economy. Customs JFK isn't always so fast about getting it into the USPS here).

It is one of these linked (a single chisel, not the set), and I definitely did not order it from So, as it's hard to even get a hold of So, #1, and #2, so's pricing policies and my buying policies don't ever have any overlap.

http://www.japan-tool.com/nomi/Kiyot...da_Tataki.html

So (no pun intended), what's the big deal about tokyo smiths? There were at least at one point, smiths in tokyo who were very competent with white #1 steel. If chisels are made properly with it, it's probably unmatched by anything for edge holding. if they aren't, then they are no better than run of the mill white #2 chisels that cost about $60, and maybe worse. I have an imai timber framer that's definitely no better than a white #2 chisel, which makes it a pain to use. It is something you would use only on large mortises, anyway (like chopping out a plane). Imai is well known as a good smith of white steel, so it's likely that I was just unlucky.

I don't have any fear that I'm encouraging someone to go buy extremely expensive tokyo smith tools if it arrives and it really is superb, because all of the tokyo smiths are deceased or retired.

But it will add an interesting point of reference, because Kiyotada is a known maker who was able to produce extremely hard chisels that are not brittle. And because of the context that there are a lot of new steels that are being promoted as ultimate chisel steels, I'm not sure I believe that any of them are better than a top of the line carbon steel chisel. It does satisfy a curiosity of mine, to see what the best of the best work really is. Work that isn't intended to be produced several thousand at a time, and work that isn't designed with thoughts about supply volume, etc.

I don't doubt that very few people are interested in this kind of stuff, but for the few that are, I can hardly resist indulging us.

Is it metallurgically possible for brittleness to not vary directly with hardness? I ask this seriously, not as a barb at you or anybody else.