Wadkin PK slider table saw or Martin T17 slider ?

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, I figured you'd be along at some point. I actually thought you might be one of the folks with experience on both, oh well. It seems the only real advantage is the Wadkin has the slider next to the blade, and looks of course. Otherwise, the Martin has more capacity to accomplish the same tasks. Where did you dig up those images? My sleuthing skills are substandard it seems.
Peter

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, without using the PK and based on looking at pictures and specs I would go for the T17. The way the sliding table folds down on the T17 is real nice. I think both the cross cutting fence and rip fence on the 17 are better. Martin was always ahead of their time even back with the cast iron machines. Old US iron is nice but the designs did not improve since mid century. The Wadkin machines a little more advanced but not as cutting edge as German iron of the same vintage. Thats my opinion for what it is worth. Not that I would turn down a PK if ever the chance... Any of this stuff is hard to come by in my neck of the woods.
I think the ultimate home or retirement shop would be great with the old iron. These machines can be had cheap especially in Europe. It is a huge amount of work to bring them back to original though. I was about half way there on my old T75. I really admire the PK that Jack in Canada restored.
Martin Museum 1.jpgT17.JPGMost every shop in Europe has nice old iron stuck back in the corners left over from the fathers and grandfathers before them. This years tour we saw a nice compact Funk 2 spindle shaper - tenoner that was pretty neat along with a lot of other old machines. The owner mentioned he would not refuse any reasonable offers on the old stuff.
If you ever get the chance to visit the Martin museum in Ottobeuren they have a lot of info about the old machines. Here is a picture of a T11 or 12 from the museum. And a nicely restored T17 that Kent A sent me.
I have a hard time putting pictures on here. Is there a way to rotate the T17?

[Peter Kelly]

Wadkin PK hands down. Martin is great but that T 17 just isn't as sophisticated a machine.

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, when you say "this years tour" what are you referring to? Am I missing out on a great trip? Also, when you call Martin here in the states, they know nothing of these machines, and when they contact Germany, they know nothing as well- must not be talking to the museum operators. Those are very nice machines! I don't know who Kent A is ? My saw has the same style fence as the one on the left- it tilts to 45 degrees , and lifts vertically to swing under the table when not in use. Mine does not have the mortising attachment, but rather another 3'+ of cast iron top along with rip fence bar for 59" of capacity.
I had heard they had 2 different styles, mine must be older. I agree with everything about the comparison from a working standpoint, the real edge for the Wadkin is the fact that the sliding table abuts the blade for good short part support, not divorce mounted like the Martin with about 8-10" of solid table to the left of blade.
Peter

[Mark Bolton]

Wadkin PK hands down. Martin is great but that T 17 just isn't as sophisticated a machine.

Unreal, total work of art.

[David Kumm]

Were there any functional deficiencies to the Wadkin? Even the unrestored ones are eye candy. I used to think the Greenlee 495S was a good looking saw but it is the ugly stepsister in comparison. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, when you say "this years tour" what are you referring to? Am I missing out on a great trip? Also, when you call Martin here in the states, they know nothing of these machines, and when they contact Germany, they know nothing as well- must not be talking to the museum operators. Those are very nice machines! I don't know who Kent A is ? My saw has the same style fence as the one on the left- it tilts to 45 degrees , and lifts vertically to swing under the table when not in use. Mine does not have the mortising attachment, but rather another 3'+ of cast iron top along with rip fence bar for 59" of capacity.
I had heard they had 2 different styles, mine must be older. I agree with everything about the comparison from a working standpoint, the real edge for the Wadkin is the fact that the sliding table abuts the blade for good short part support, not divorce mounted like the Martin with about 8-10" of solid table to the left of blade.
Peter

Peter, We give 4 day workshops on Euro window - door construction and shaper use - Alpine Technical Workshops. Greg from Rangate tooling is involved with this and he has put together a European technical tour the last couple years with timing to attend Ligna this year and Fensterbau the off years. FFI, Zuani and Martin are sponsors of the workshop, last year they set up the shop tours including one to my cousins shop in northern Italy. This year we were in northern Germany. Michael from the Holzfachschule Woodworking school was kind enough to give us 3 great shop tours of small to medium size German shops and his school.T16 page 1.jpg We also spent one day learning about Passivehaus construction. We will be going again next year, its a lot of fun and a great learning experience.T75 sliding table.jpgI think your saw might be older like the picture of the T16. The picture from the museum in my last post is actually a T60. Carl and Dan at Martin know some about these machines and can usually come up with PDF manuals and some parts for them. Dan is in Arizona now. Martin wants to sell new machines. You have to understand the German way of thinking. They cannot fathom why we would want to work on antique machines... The woodworking business is totally different over there.
I think the T75 is also a great joinery saw if you have room for the sliding table and push it all the way to the front. We used to put dado and shaper heads on ours by cranking the table away from the blade. This cast iron sliding table design worked well and is basically not much different than the new Martins.
Joe

[Peter Kelly]

Were there any functional deficiencies to the Wadkin?

Nope.

[David Kumm]

Peter, can I convince you there must be a million and i could take the stress away for you? Dave

[mreza Salav]

I think these are photos of Jack's machine. He has restored a number of Wadkin machines and every single one of them is a work of art.
Search for 1941 Wadkin RM to see his lates trestroation of a 24"/26" J/P.

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, I never knew such workshops existed, I'm sure after hours ,after the workshops, the refreshments are terrible.
My saw is very much like the T16 you show.
Dave, I wish you could help me.
There is no doubt that the English machines have good lines and work well. However the Germans could just about care less about the flashiness or coolness factor, they make machines to work period! I think it a little shortsighted to claim that the Wadkin is the engineering marvel some here seem to think. There is more going on behind that simple looking monotrol dial on the Martin than in the whole Wadkin saw, but I'd still like to have one in my shop to look at .
Peter

[David Kumm]

Peter, we are in pretty rarified air here. I would argue that some of the most beautioful machines I've seen have been German from before the steel base era. Bauerle, Kolle, Panhans, and even Martin were just fun to look at. I've never used any but I've got Yates, Greenlee, Oliver, K-C, Porter, and Oakley. All are better looking and have higher skills than me. Dave

[Ron Kellison]

I have been "up close and personal" with that particular Wadkin PK. It is an incredible piece of machinery, wonderfully restored by a master craftsman. You should see the Bursgreen jointer, Wadkin patternmaker's lathe, Maka mortiser and Wadkin bandsaw, all in the same workshop! He should issues drooling bibs at the door!!

I would also point out that all of this incredible machinery is used...it's not a museum!

Ron

[jack forsberg]

while I think the T17 is a very fine saw for what it is and that the Name Martin is legendary its a little erroneous to say its more advance than the Wadkin PK.

First is that the PK was designed in the mid 20s and the T17 in the 50s. A fair compassion would be the Wadkin PP and the advanced version of the PK.


































































jack
English machines

[peter gagliardi]

He's Baaack! Good to hear from you Jack, and thanks for all the images. Just to be clear, I'd like to have both! But I was trying to get feedback from users of both machines. No machine is perfect, the question becomes , do its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.
Peter