Diamond Paste / Oilstones - Help

[Lloyd Robins]

A long time back I got some Norton diamond paste in 45 micron, 15 micron, and .5 micron. I also got 2 kanaban and was given a third by Bob Marino. I promised to report back on what happened, so I am finally reporting and asking for help to see what I did wrong. I had blades from a new to me #3 and a #5-1/4, also new to me, to work on. The blades were in pretty bad shape and so I thought that this would be a good time to try the diamond paste. To say the best it was very instructive, and to say the least it was a terrible experience. I spent several hours (off and on as my hands would allow me) working on these two blades. I was going to flatten the complete backs, but I was unable to get much to happen with the 45 micron paste, so I tried the Charlesworth Ruler Trick. I did make some progress and finally a flat surface but not very much shine on the back of one blade. The other one seemed hopeless, so I took the best one and went to the 15 micron with the paste, and after a long time I got the scratch pattern reduced, but still no shine, and it was quite dark. So, I went ahead and tried the .5 micron. After another long period of work, a tiny bit of shine, but not much. I had started early in the morning, and as it was 7:30 at night, my confidence in my sharpening abilities (which are not great) was shot. I decided to use some sandpaper and my oilstones to see what I could get to happen with them. I started with 600 grit sandpaper and the 1200 grit. I then went to my soft Arkansas, then my hard Arkansas, and finally my black Arkansas. The process took about 30 minutes total for the backs of both blades, all of the problem spots disappeared, and a nice shine appeared. For the fronts, I started with the soft Arkansas and went thru the oilstones. The fronts took 15 to 20 minutes total to get ready to go. Diamond paste is supposedly a fast way of sharpening and the kanaban are recommend for use with the paste by people whose opinions I respect. Could the diamonds have settled, and I was getting mostly paste instead of the diamonds? Is there a special technique that I should have used. (I used as much as possible the same techniques for both the paste and the oilstone.) I refreshed the paste several times when it seemed that little or no progress was occurring. (This rate of usage would make using diamond paste ridiculously expensive even if it had worked.) Anyway any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Right now I plan on throwing the paste away as a semi-expensive learning experience. I am not certain if I can find anything to do with the kanabans or not. The venting has helped, but any thoughts, advice, help, or experiences with diamond paste (good or bad). Thanks.

[Steve Friedman]

I think the diamond paste worked. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to flatten two blades that were in pretty bad shape in 30 minute, starting with 600 grit paper. I haven't used diamond paste much, but when I have, the surface does not look the same as it does off other media. It doesn't really shine. It looks kind of like what you described.

The other issue is that the Kanaban I have seen is much narrower than regulars stones and I wonder if there was something in how you were holding the blade that changed when you went to the sandpaper and oil stones.

Out of curiosity, now that you're done, I would take the blades back to the Kanaban and .5 micron paste and see what happens to the edge.

No idea if the paste could have degraded or something, but I doubt it.

Steve

[Charlie Stanford]

A long time back I got some Norton diamond paste in 45 micron, 15 micron, and .5 micron. I also got 2 kanaban and was given a third by Bob Marino. I promised to report back on what happened, so I am finally reporting and asking for help to see what I did wrong. I had blades from a new to me #3 and a #5-1/4, also new to me, to work on. The blades were in pretty bad shape and so I thought that this would be a good time to try the diamond paste. To say the best it was very instructive, and to say the least it was a terrible experience. I spent several hours (off and on as my hands would allow me) working on these two blades. I was going to flatten the complete backs, but I was unable to get much to happen with the 45 micron paste, so I tried the Charlesworth Ruler Trick. I did make some progress and finally a flat surface but not very much shine on the back of one blade. The other one seemed hopeless, so I took the best one and went to the 15 micron with the paste, and after a long time I got the scratch pattern reduced, but still no shine, and it was quite dark. So, I went ahead and tried the .5 micron. After another long period of work, a tiny bit of shine, but not much. I had started early in the morning, and as it was 7:30 at night, my confidence in my sharpening abilities (which are not great) was shot. I decided to use some sandpaper and my oilstones to see what I could get to happen with them. I started with 600 grit sandpaper and the 1200 grit. I then went to my soft Arkansas, then my hard Arkansas, and finally my black Arkansas. The process took about 30 minutes total for the backs of both blades, all of the problem spots disappeared, and a nice shine appeared. For the fronts, I started with the soft Arkansas and went thru the oilstones. The fronts took 15 to 20 minutes total to get ready to go. Diamond paste is supposedly a fast way of sharpening and the kanaban are recommend for use with the paste by people whose opinions I respect. Could the diamonds have settled, and I was getting mostly paste instead of the diamonds? Is there a special technique that I should have used. (I used as much as possible the same techniques for both the paste and the oilstone.) I refreshed the paste several times when it seemed that little or no progress was occurring. (This rate of usage would make using diamond paste ridiculously expensive even if it had worked.) Anyway any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Right now I plan on throwing the paste away as a semi-expensive learning experience. I am not certain if I can find anything to do with the kanabans or not. The venting has helped, but any thoughts, advice, help, or experiences with diamond paste (good or bad). Thanks.

The entire process you've described is overwrought. Cut some sandpaper the size of one of your oilstones. Spread a thin layer of oil on a stone. Lay the sandpaper on the stone and press it flat. Then flatten whatever needs flattening. Use something around 100 grit or so and move up to 220. After that, just polish and hone on your oilstones as you will be doing day in and day out. Flush your oilstones under running water to get rid of any loose grit from the paper. You're good to go.

You don't need a kanaban and you don't need diamond paste. Beautiful works of decorative art have been built in the western world for several centuries without either.

[David Weaver]

The kanabans might not have been flat. Diamonds don't bring anything to a bright polish until at least 0.5 micron, but the process shouldn't have been that difficult, anyway. If I had done that process for a couple of hours on loose 100 grit diamonds, I would've worn through the iron, actually ground it totally away (I don't use pastes, but the pastes are fine for honing, maybe not as good for heavier work when you can put a more dense layer on a kanaban).

All of that said, it sounds like the steel worked well on the oilstones, so you know what you need to know now. Use whatever works easiest.

If you find the kanaban are flat with a straight edge, and you don't want to tackle using them, just sell them in the S&S.

Bill Tindall will probably be offended when I say this, but I've noticed Bill to make a lot of things that are easy fairly difficult, and he loves diamond on cast iron, though his process is a little different than yours with the coarser grit.

Anyway, you have good luck with the oilstones and two irons that like them, so you know what to do with them. You can either keep the diamond stuff in case you have something oilstones don't like, or you can sell it and avoid stuff that oilstones don't like.

[Lloyd Robins]

Thank you for your help and ideas. Sorry that I didn't get back earlier... Steve, yes, the kanaban and paste worked to a point and then it just seemed to quit with the edges having a different pattern. I was unable to get it to finish the job. That is where the majority of the time was spent. It has been suggested that I might have gotten some kanaban that were too hard to work. The area where the paste was working was quite dark, so the shiny areas were not ready to go. Charlie, good idea. As to overwrought, I did want to see if I could make it work. I do love my oilstones, but I might use the kanaban with sandpaper instead of glass for the couple of A2 items that I have. David, I did check the kanaban with a precision straight edge and everything looked good. I do try to avoid the stuff that oilstones don't like, but it is not always possible. David B. your well thought out and helpful post seems to have disappeared from the thread, but I will try a different substrate. Thank you again for your replies and help.

[Charlie Stanford]

Thank you for your help and ideas. Sorry that I didn't get back earlier... Steve, yes, the kanaban and paste worked to a point and then it just seemed to quit with the edges having a different pattern. I was unable to get it to finish the job. That is where the majority of the time was spent. It has been suggested that I might have gotten some kanaban that were too hard to work. The area where the paste was working was quite dark, so the shiny areas were not ready to go. Charlie, good idea. As to overwrought, I did want to see if I could make it work. I do love my oilstones, but I might use the kanaban with sandpaper instead of glass for the couple of A2 items that I have. David, I did check the kanaban with a precision straight edge and everything looked good. I do try to avoid the stuff that oilstones don't like, but it is not always possible. David B. your well thought out and helpful post seems to have disappeared from the thread, but I will try a different substrate. Thank you again for your replies and help.

If you flatten atop something other than the stones you'll use everyday you will in the long run be disappointed. Your day-to-day stones will have their say. It's unavoidable. The back only needs to be flat enough to make the burr flip back to the front when backing off. Now, that's pretty darned flat. But whatever stone you will use on a daily basis in backing off is the standard to which you should flatten. The interjection of surface plates and other materials is essentially a fool's errand since as you back off whatever stone is used for this will impart its own degree of flatness over time. A lot of guys flatten on something other than their day to day stones and then are shocked and perplexed when they start to use the chisel or cutter on a daily basis and a different polish pattern emerges during normal honing and backing off. Again, all you need are your workaday stones and some sandpaper cut to the same size. Flatten on the stones you'll use every day.

[Lloyd Robins]

Charlie, thank you. I had never thought of that. I will have to give up on the two sets and just use the one.