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Thread: Vintage miter boxes

  1. #1
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    Vintage miter boxes

    It seems to me that this topic deserves more "air time". Maybe it is just me but I find tons of info. on making sawing jigs for a bench or making sawbenches but very little discussion of miter boxes. Admittedly I am coming from more of a construction orientation, where one lives and dies by the compound miter saw still...

    I restored a Millers Falls/Langdon 74C, which I am quite fond of. I find it to be more accurate than my electron eater and even easier to use. I am thinking I will do the majority of my crosscuts using this box and I have a hard time understanding why most hand tool users would not get major usage from one of these saws. I am in the process of building table(s) to use this saw and my Steel City planer on. I am also in the market for a lighter, faster cutting saw than the Disston 26" (actual tooth length), 11 ppi saw that came with it. I have searched long and hard for a smaller miter box but I am giving up on finding one. I think I have decided my 74C will serve most of my needs better anyway if I find a better lighter saw for it.

    My main concern, now that I have the box fully restored, painted...is the saw. It seems to me that a saw with a thinner plate and a little less size and weight might serve my general needs better. I am wondering what tooth count and size saws others use and find serviceable?
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-11-2013 at 12:02 PM.

  2. #2
    I ve always been interested in mitre boxes and had to use them before shops went to electric chop saws etc. They turn up at yard sales and don't bring much. With the interest here in making saws ,has anyone here made 2 backsaws from one of the 30 inch mitre box saws?

  3. #3
    (re: making other backsaws) Super heavy thick plates!

    I think a lot of people end up not using them (I have one that I end up not using a lot) because your sawing stroke is limited in those saws and if you are marking your cuts all of the way around, you don't need the accuracy and you'll want to do something to finish the end if it's exposed, anyway.

    A chop saw is a lot more practical, but certainly doesn't allow for much nostalgia.

    I don't know what happened to all of the boxes, but my dad seems to be able to find saws between probably 26 and 30 inches at the flea market he goes to, and he's never paid more than $3. They are often the only type of old saw that I've seen that's actually sharp or close to it. I mooched a really nice simonds saw off of him for my box for $3 a couple of years ago, as he is not a fine woodworker, and anything in his shop will either be covered with rust or paint pretty quickly.

    Mike - you need the saws the way they're designed for two reasons:
    1) you need the thickness for rigidity, and also to fit in the guides snugly
    2) you need the weight because you will not be able to bear down on the cut, the weight of the saw will have to do the work. a lighter saw will not do.

    Any thickness the plate has will not be detrimental to the speed of the cut because it will come with commensurate weight. I've found that my thicker 16" backsaw will cut faster than a similar thinner 14" saw that I have, pretty much just because the plate and spine are heavier on it.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 07-11-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  4. #4
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    I use my miter box quite a bit. I also have a compound miter saw and I still use that sometimes as well. The electric saw leaves a cleaner edge, especially on larger pieces that would be too big for me to use my shooting board (I use my LV smoothing plane, so there are practical limits). On smaller pieces, I prefer the miter box as it's quiet and ends up being faster compared to pulling the compound miter saw out, hooking up the hose, turning on the shopvac, getting all geared up with goggles, mask, earmuffs...

    I think David is right about the sawplate thickness and the overall weight. All you have to do is push the saw back and forth, the weight and rigidity keeps it plowing straight down through the cut. As for tooth count, 11 ppi is standard for any miter box saw I've seen. I think if it's not going fast enough for you, then you'd be better off crosscutting freehand with a handsaw at, say, 9 ppi. The somewhat larger teeth, and the longer effective stroke would speed up the work. I also use this method... just depends on what I'm cutting and what the end result needs to be.

    A couple other random notes:

    Before buying a miter box (Millers Falls 74C), I bought a Simonds 24 x 4 saw and made a wooden crosscut box. The saw is about 1915-1920 vintage, with a nice dark apple handle that looks much better than the 1950's vintage Disston that came with the 74C (but the Disston is 28 x 5, so a little longer stroke). At one point, I needed to resharpen the Disston, so I thought I would temporarily use the Simonds in the 74C until I got around to it. But the Simonds would not fit through the slots in the saw guides. If you look closely, the slots get wider towards the bottom, to accommodate the set teeth. But the teeth on the shorter Simonds saw were too high and would not go through the narrower part of the slots.

    The 74C and similar have red metal tables with little sharp nibs to catch the workpiece and hold it in place. That's fine for construction work, but it tends to do bad things to my nicely-planed pieces. I need to make an auxiliary table. I've also found that the flared opening between the tables, which allows the saw to pivot for miter angles, can cause thinner workpieces to sag where they are unsupported next to the saw. To finally break through the bottom, I have to lift the workpiece up with my thumb as I make the last couple strokes. So I think I will make thin wooden tables with 90° ends at the saw, since most of the time I'm only making straight crosscuts.

  5. #5
    David, the plate thickness never occurred to me .Guess its because I don't sharpen them,tried a long time ago and all the teeth would run together.Thanks. We've always had a good saw shop in town .Once when I bought a shop worn saw from him he insisted on sharpening it at no extra charge.

  6. #6
    Probably the biggest pain in the butt to sharpen in the whole shop -there's a million little teeth on them, and you only use a part of them because of the way the saw fits in the box. But you have to joint them all and at least file the front and the back ones into something halfway respectable. I'm inclined to mark my saw the next time where the front and back of the cut stops on some typical piece of wood and just file the other teeth rip with high rake. It'll make no practical difference but it'll sure cut down on the sharpening time!

    I traded my dad for another saw before he told me how much he paid. He had a long saw (28x5) that he tried to use to cut laminate flooring, and I offered to sharpen it in exchange for another miter saw. He was OK with that. I'll bet it took an hour or more to sharpen it and remove the damage he made, and I could've just given him 3 bucks.

  7. #7
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    Well burst my bubble! I was dreaming of something more like my Gramercy sash saw in a miter box. There is this smaller MF miter box I see around fairly often that always commands prices I have not been willing to pay. I was trying to get both in one saw, ok maybe I was dreaming.

    I actually have been reasonably happy with the speed of cut with the saw I have. I touched the teeth up a little and like David mentions those teeth do seem to go on & on & on.....Maybe I will just look for a second similar saw at auction. I was surprised to hear Andrea's comment about the limited ability of the slots in the miter box. I had not actually tried other saws in mine since I had nothing close in size. Since I restored my saw, the table has a fresh thick coat of enamel on it which has diminished the tendency of the teeth to slice into work pieces.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrae Covington View Post
    .... [snip] ..
    .
    I think David is right about the sawplate thickness and the overall weight. All you have to do is push the saw back and forth, the weight and rigidity keeps it plowing straight down through the cut. As for tooth count, 11 ppi is standard for any miter box saw I've seen. I think if it's not going fast enough for you, then you'd be better off crosscutting freehand with a handsaw at, say, 9 ppi. The somewhat larger teeth, and the longer effective stroke would speed up the work. I also use this method... just depends on what I'm cutting and what the end result needs to be.

    A couple other random notes:

    Before buying a miter box (Millers Falls 74C), I bought a Simonds 24 x 4 saw and made a wooden crosscut box. The saw is about 1915-1920 vintage, with a nice dark apple handle that looks much better than the 1950's vintage Disston that came with the 74C (but the Disston is 28 x 5, so a little longer stroke). At one point, I needed to resharpen the Disston, so I thought I would temporarily use the Simonds in the 74C until I got around to it. But the Simonds would not fit through the slots in the saw guides. If you look closely, the slots get wider towards the bottom, to accommodate the set teeth. But the teeth on the shorter Simonds saw were too high and would not go through the narrower part of the slots.
    A while back I purchased a MF 74C to go with a Disston with a 26"x 4" plate. They did not work together, for all the reasons outlined by Andrae. The #74C must have a minimum of 5" plate depth. Fortunately I was able to find a very good Disston-made-for-the-74C with a 5 1/2" depth. Sharpened, the combination is sublime.

    Most recent use: I needed to saw the stretcher of the base of the kist I am building. The idea was to create a flow of the grain from the corners at the front through the drawer front, and to the other corner. A wide saw kerf (with a table saw) could reduce the flow. If sawn off square with a hand saw, shooting it square would have the same effect. The thin kerf of a mitrebox saw plus the squareness of the cut from the mitrebox, itself, was the solution. Minimal cleaning up from a perfectly square cut.

    Anyone wishing to use a saw plate with less depth must either seek out a #74A or B, or shorten the posts that hold the saw (this controls the height of the plate permissible). The latter is very doable, but it does alter a vintage tool. [EDIT: Another solution may be to raise the mitrebox up on blocks. This would allow the saw guide posts to drop below the base of the mitrebox. .... mmmm ... that should fix the problem ... I'll have to wait for my return to Perth to find out ..]

    I'd also like one of the smaller boxes, but am not willing to spend in the region of $400. It is an interesting idea to build one. Perhaps ....

    Regards from Cape Town

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 07-12-2013 at 5:27 AM.

  9. #9
    I would like to know where anyone is finding decent vintage miter boxes for any kind of reasonable money. The only ones I see are high priced on Ebay. Perhaps we could have a sticky in this forum or something about them....I find myself rarely using my chop saw and doing most of my cutting by hand any more, so it would be a huge forward push to my woodworking to find one. Good info here on the weight of the saw and so forth... THANKS to you guys for the time to post this stuff!

  10. #10
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    If anyone is seriously interested in building a miter box, look at what Chicago Furniture maker Jeff Miller has designed. I gave it a test drive. It delivers fantastic results. Search for "Jeff Miller Magic Tenoning Jig". Although not a miter box per se, there are some directly applicable ideas here that may accelerate and improve a home made box. Note, he happens to use the L-N Thin Plate Tenon Saw with this jig.

  11. #11
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    Hand Tool Man Derek always seems to have the "straight skinny" on just about any tool, thanks Derek for the detailed explanation of the saw limits for the 74C. I will check out "Jeff Millers Magic Tenoning Jig Bill, also great info. Probably by the time I find the info. on it Derek will have made one though ;-)

    I am working on place(s) to mount my saw today. I have this old metal desk that belonged to my granddad that I have been restoring. I finally got the old metal composite top off, revealing a metal frame I can attach a wooden top too. This desk may be too big at around 33 x 46" though. I am thinking it might work better attached to my Adjust A Bench, which I am also working on today. Yes it's worktable/bench day. Anyone care to reveal what they use to steady their miter saw?

    Chris I just watched Ebay for a few months until I found a good saw at a reasonable price 50-$75 I believe:

    Millers Falls 74C Miter Box.jpg

    I did clean it up and paint it.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-12-2013 at 10:56 AM.

  12. #12
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    For those unfamiliar wih the MF 74C, here is the ACME version I have - about 1920/30? This had a fair amount of surface rust. The saw was very good but tarmished and grimy. I completed a gentle restoration on both ...





    Regards from Cape Town

    Derek

  13. #13
    Derek ,nice job. That is a good model,my favorite ,unfortunately so many of them have been dropped and welded.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    A while back I purchased a MF 74C to go with a Disston with a 26"x 4" plate. They did not work together, for all the reasons outlined by Andrae. The #74C must have a minimum of 5" plate depth...
    I figured someone else had run into this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    ...Anyone care to reveal what they use to steady their miter saw?
    I mounted mine to a piece of plywood, with an extra piece to form a lip... basically just like a bench hook. Of course I have to move it off the bench when I want to do other things, so it doesn't have a dedicated place to live.

    MillersFalls74C.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hachet View Post
    I would like to know where anyone is finding decent vintage miter boxes for any kind of reasonable money. The only ones I see are high priced on Ebay...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    ...Chris I just watched Ebay for a few months until I found a good saw at a reasonable price 50-$75 I believe:

    Millers Falls 74C Miter Box.jpg

    I did clean it up and paint it.
    I waited a long, long time, because I didn't want to pay so much either. Hence the shopmade wooden miter box I mentioned in an earlier post. It worked, but not nearly as nice as the real deal. Eventually I held my nose and bought one on ebay. I paid more than Mike did, but not $300-$500 as some I've seen. You might get lucky and find one locally for a good price (like this thread). Being able to check it all out in person and make sure it's all there and functional would be a plus. And shipping one of these little monsters is expensive. I checked local craigslist for a long time, but the occasional ones that showed up looked like they had been constructed entirely of cor-ten, and at nearly ebay prices to boot.

  15. #15
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    Great idea for a base for your saw Andrae! I may have to follow your lead on that one. A bench hook base why didn't I think of that? Loving the parade of saw pictures too. Dang if Derek didn't one up us by owning the model with the most options and cool factor!

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