Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 103

Thread: Rolled Bevel vs Micro Bevel vs Hollow Grind

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Lubbock, Tx
    Posts
    1,490

    Rolled Bevel vs Micro Bevel vs Hollow Grind

    Started reading the Paul Sellers blog recently and his teachings are a lot different than a lot of the books, videos, blogs, etc that I've been looking at thus far. For example, bench height, chopping mortises, and sharpening.

    As far as sharpening, he doesn't seem to have much use for a micro bevel - which is interesting to me since I just got (but haven't used yet) and Veritas MK II honing jig. So can someone walk me through the pros and cons of rolled bevel ala Sellers, micro bevel, and hollow grinding? I'm hoping it's just so many roads leading to the same destination.

    TIA,
    Tony

    PS This is part of a bigger question I asked about on another forum about shifting through the information provided by so many woodworking 'gurus'.

    PSS Hopefully not too divisive a topic; that certainly is not what I'm looking for in asking - quite the opposite.

  2. #2
    my response would be to find a method that works for you. many paths lead to sharpness. find one that is fast and effective. i don't spend much time sharpening, as I prefer to just use my sharp tools on wood. search the many posts here to find the endless debates (rather than start a new one)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    93
    In my opinion, at least for normal everyday work, it's really a matter of personal preference.
    Freehand sharpening, however, is much faster than putting things in honing jigs, and isn't hard to get the hang of.
    I am now using Paul's method on my oilstones and strop, and it does get things sharp fast.
    My tools are almost exclusively O1 and similar steel, so that may effect the choice of sharpening media.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wild Wild West USA
    Posts
    1,542
    Tony,

    So glad you asked. Not that I have any views on sharpening.
    Yah right.

    A micro bevel allows you to do quick touch ups of an edge without cutting all that metal back on the main bevel. The Varitas allows a roughly one and two degree change in angle.

    Lets talk Bevel Up blades for an example.
    These repeatable and consistent one or two degree settings are extremely useful to me. For instance I grind (or receive from the blade maker ) the main bevel to suit the softest wood I am likely to work. I have some steep bevel blades from the maker but recommend getting the shallower angle on the main bevel and then setting the Varitas to sharpen at the bevel I need for the wood I am to work, which mostly is very hard wood and I sharpen at say 40º with the little "micro bevel" clicker on the roller set to the least angle setting.

    Then, when I have the angle I want I sharpen through all the grits and it goes quick because I am just sharpening a micro bevel.
    When I go to sharpen again I probably do the same.

    Then after a few sharpenings . . . the original MICRObevel is getting wider so I may click one notch on the roller clicker and suddenly I have a very small area to sharpen that is only one degree, roughly, different.
    or
    if I am tearing out and need a little steeper angle I can click up one or both notches and get a known and repeatable difference.
    When one gets into the steeper bevels it takes more horse power to drive the blade through the wood, especially with the wider finish blades with low or zero camber edges. Adding five degrees for no reason just because we are ever getting roundyer on the bevel that your buddy is promoting is adding significant and unnecessary work to your day.

    I write the sharpening angle to the steepest micro bevel on each blade with magic marker. I have stacks of blades for my most used planes so it helps me select the angle I need and often I have several of the same micro bevel angle for the wood I am working at the time. If tear out is an issue.

    As far as the other cons see the stropping thread posted today.

    If you want to get set up to hollow grind and you do it right and don't heat up your edges that is a very fast and effective way to go.
    but
    hone a flat facet on the very edge of the blade using the jig
    don't
    go blindly rounding the edge. That is just rubbing areas of the blade with your expensive stones that is not cutting wood. Only the fraction of a millimeter at the very edge of the blade needs to be polished
    and
    it needs to be flat. HOLLOW GRINDING THE VERY, TIPPY TIP OF THE CUTTING EDGE CHANGES THE GEOMETRY shallower and is an unpredictable geometry unless you know the radius of your stones (which are always getting smaller) and can do the math and hold your blades at the correct angle to get the geometry for the wood you are working. Also you are using a wet wheel at this point and that is more futzing around.
    Power grinding the very edge of the blade is like killing an ant with a missile. Sharpening by rounding the edge rather than using a jig and making a flat facet is like throwing darts in a dark room hoping you will hit the target.

    so many roads
    many of them leading to another crappier valley over from which you can only look on at the party you hopped to go to.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Winton Applegate; 07-17-2013 at 1:50 AM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Lubbock, Tx
    Posts
    1,490
    Winton, slight tangent, I believe I remember you not liking the 'ruler trick' sharpening of a back bevel as suggested by lie Nielsen and David Charlesworth. IIRC, why is that?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    In my basement
    Posts
    736
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins View Post
    Winton, slight tangent, I believe I remember you not liking the 'ruler trick' sharpening of a back bevel as suggested by lie Nielsen and David Charlesworth. IIRC, why is that?
    Not that I'm answering for Winton, but my short and sweet is that a blade gets sharp by 2 planes intersecting. The ruler trick back-bevel puts another plane into the mix. That bevel can creep, and, at least on BU planes, your "edge" isn't really your "edge". The edge you've created is actually off the bed of the plane.

    I'll go on record and say for beginners, it's a nice little trick. If you have good waterstones (I can't speak for oil stones), it's a moot point. You have a guide, and as long as your stones are flat, there's really no reason for it.

    I actually never used one. I never saw the point.

    Also, I purchased a MkII guide. I don't micro-bevel and most of my blades are set at 30*. I do tend to hollow-grind my blades, though, so I don't have as much metal to remove with my stones.

    Really, if your blades are sharp, that's all that matters. I'll also suggest caution and thought when reading about other people's techniques and tricks. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Find your own way with trial and error and enjoy the hobby (or profession).
    The Barefoot Woodworker.

    Fueled by leather, chrome, and thunder.

  7. #7
    When I first started getting serious about hand planes, my belt sander then a quick hone didn't seem to fit any more. And OK, its evolved, but through all the iterations I've tried, sharp is still sharp. You can use a micro bevel, a back bevel, a secondary bevel, hollow grind, flat grind, buy a $700 tormek, a $60 Ryobi, and it doesn't matter. Sharp is sharp. Simplify my man. That's what Paul Sellers is teaching and I agree. Here is my technique. Hollow grind. I've got both an 8" wheel and a 10" whet wheel. No math required. Move from the wheel (first time only) to a hard oil stone. Oil the stone, set the iron on it, rock the hollow and feel the click front and back to get it perfectly flat. After some practice muscle memory will follow the forward back stroke. Hit the strop to remove the burr, take one or two more passes on the stone. You've saved $80 on the jig, and believe it or not, sharp is still sharp.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Coastal Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,824
    I've used the methods mentioned above, each with some measure of success.

    I find the convex bevel method as taught by Mr. Sellers repeatable, effective and faster than the others. No power grinding or polishing is involved.
    It's also a good deal less mess to contend with. I don't have a sink in my basement shop - so waterstones were an "upstairs" affair.

    This way, I can keep three diamond plates and a strop at my bench.
    I now use light machine oil on my diamond plates and it seems to work.

    I found plates smaller than 3" wide and 6" long to be fiddly - hard to stay on them.
    The Atoma plates are big and stable, but expensive.

    There's no rust to clear, and the stones look (and cut) like new after three months.
    Perhaps this will be an expensive mistake, but for now it seems to work.

    All of my irons are now flattened on the back - no ruler trick.
    As I had some bevel-up irons that had a back-bevel, this took some doing.
    (I ground back the edge to the limit of the back bevel and re-flattened the back.)

    I prefer to do this with the traditional blades that use a cap iron, they're thinner and often softer.
    That gets sharp, faster. Some of the current, thicker blades can be difficult to sharpen this way.


    ...

    I can take a dull edge (once the back of the steel has been flattened - and that is laborious) to sharp in about 90 seconds this way.
    I was about that fast in setting up my honing gauge when I used Shapton stones and a Veritas greeble.

    I would say two things about the convex bevel sharpening method;

    First -

    You've got to get the stones down around your belt level to maintain a proper honing angle.
    If it's too high, the angle will be shallow. If the stone height is too low, it will be too steep.

    I try to keep my wrist and elbow aligned, no contortions or my tennis elbow flares again.

    Second -


    This method takes considerable force to work. You've got to bear down on the iron.
    I was surprised at how much force was required to hone and strop this way.

    Honing utilizes the natural swing of your arms (describing a shallow arc) but stropping needs to be at a constant angle of attack.
    The stropping step is deceptively simple, and subtle rocking of the blade will produce a less keen edge.
    I'm still struggling with this.

    I believe the microbevel method is so successful because it concentrates force on a much smaller area.
    If you lack hand strength, have mobility problems or side weakness - the honing guide and microbevel method is a wonder.


    With the convex bevel, you've got lots of steel in contact with each stone.
    The exertion required to raise a burr is proportional to the size of the blade
    and the hardness of the steel at hand.

    In short - if you can get an edge sharp fast with this method,
    you'll likely be at it again in short order.

    If it took a long time to get the edge sharp,
    it might last longer, with proper handling.

    Here's the bottom line; it's easy to get feedback on the convex bevel method as you can see the large area being honed develop a scratch pattern
    and you can readily feel the burr as it is raised.
    Last edited by Jim Matthews; 07-17-2013 at 8:21 AM.

  9. #9
    It all makes little difference, find something and use it as a method. Whatever is consistent, fast, and gets good results.

    If the gurus are:
    * talking about beginner stuff
    * selling tools or pitching tools
    * saying their method is the only way

    Then you can ignore the gurus. What they should know that would be beneficial to us would be in procedure and design, and by procedure, I mean like getting a drawer front, three sides and a bottom and showing a fast way to do neat work. Not a 1 hour video on it, but how it's done in a shop.

    Everybody likes to talk about sharpening and dovetails and other things that will eventually drive you up the wall when you see them, but those are basic blocking and tackling that you could just about fall into doing fine by trial and error.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins View Post
    Started reading the Paul Sellers blog recently and his teachings are a lot different than a lot of the books, videos, blogs, etc that I've been looking at thus far. For example, bench height, chopping mortises, and sharpening.

    As far as sharpening, he doesn't seem to have much use for a micro bevel - which is interesting to me since I just got (but haven't used yet) and Veritas MK II honing jig. So can someone walk me through the pros and cons of rolled bevel ala Sellers, micro bevel, and hollow grinding? I'm hoping it's just so many roads leading to the same destination.

    TIA,
    Tony

    PS This is part of a bigger question I asked about on another forum about shifting through the information provided by so many woodworking 'gurus'.

    PSS Hopefully not too divisive a topic; that certainly is not what I'm looking for in asking - quite the opposite.
    Consider flat grinding and honing with an Eclipse style jig. It's reliable, repeatable, and the geometry is above reproach. It produces the definition of a sharp edge, a simple intersection of two planes, no hollows, no tricks, no extra bevels ("micros" or whatever the term du jour happens to be), no round bevel. Simplicity itself. You can get the real thing on EBay for $20 to $30, a clone for less than $15.
    Last edited by Charlie Stanford; 07-17-2013 at 8:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Stanford View Post
    with an Eclipse style jig
    That's good advice. It's the most basic, most controllable (for camber or whatever) and most intuitive way to go. The eclipse is to the veritas jig what a vintage bandsaw is to a tracksaw on some blinged up special high dollar table.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Williamstown,ma
    Posts
    996
    Lot of words in this thread, so I'll be brief: zero radius is just that zero radius!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bakerton WV
    Posts
    259
    This is my first post here, so a brief introduction. I am a lifelong carpenter, with a formal apprenticeship, with 44 years in building. In 1988 I course corrected out of production work and restoration to timber framing. So for about 12 years my main method of mortising, in mostly green oak with hundreds of mortises per house frame, was to drill and chisel by hand. So edge tool maintenance for me was to get sharp quick with minimum steps and have a durable edge. My method surely produced a rolled edge. I would work the bevel on a Makita horizontal wetstone grinder freehand with a 1000 girt platter and hone freehand with a hard felt wheel an a bench grinder using the lightest pressure possible. As I worked along I could feel the loss of edge, I would return to the felt wheel for maybe 10 or 15 seconds and rehone the edge. I would return to the Makita only when the bevel became to steep, that would be a subjective conclusion. I can't say what the angles were, the whole matter was judged by feel and appearance. I am a firm believer in performance in use as the guide to a more ideal state.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    It all makes little difference, find something and use it as a method. Whatever is consistent, fast, and gets good results.

    If the gurus are:
    * talking about beginner stuff
    * selling tools or pitching tools
    * saying their method is the only way

    Then you can ignore the gurus. What they should know that would be beneficial to us would be in procedure and design, and by procedure, I mean like getting a drawer front, three sides and a bottom and showing a fast way to do neat work. Not a 1 hour video on it, but how it's done in a shop.

    Everybody likes to talk about sharpening and dovetails and other things that will eventually drive you up the wall when you see them, but those are basic blocking and tackling that you could just about fall into doing fine by trial and error.
    Exactly...I pretty much just go with a straight 30 degree bevel or a slight hollow grind, either way works for me. the more tricks and Guru's advice I try to use. the duller my tools seem to get. Like Mr. Mathews, I use diamond stones at the bench...works pretty good. I have just started playing with water stones.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    3,737
    Welcome to the sawmill creek Roger,Execellant first post I can see the truth in your words,Working in timber framing your chisels are step up from my cabinet chisels.I too would use a Makita if my tools were 1 inch or better.Someday I would like to work on some big timbers.Not much of that going on round here.But at least I not making trinkets dudads and small boxes.Maybe small boxes I still like small boxes. Andrew

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •