Rough first impressions of LN #5 versus LV #4 1/2

[Tony Wilkins]

Got my LN #5 yesterday afternoon and got my LV #4 1/2 (BD) on Friday afternoon. This morning was my first chance to set them up and use them in anger on wood. I was quite surprised by what I found. First, the difference in the 'prettiness' of the tool was not as large as what the online pictures would have me believe. The LV ain't a bad lookin' tool.

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN. The LN might be a bit better when I open the mouth a bit but even the relative ease in that operation is a selling point for the veritas. I'm seeing where I could do a lot with a couple of extra blades on the 4 1/2.

BTW, also used my Old Street jack in the mix some. It is a lot lighter but I do like the lower hold and overall ergonomics of the metal planes better (especially the LV).

Thoughts on my thoughts and comments welcome.

Bonus question: would it be untoward to see about sending the LN back if I don't bond with it soon and exchanging it for more of their chisels (which I do like)?

[Chris Griggs]

Bonus question: would it be untoward to see about sending the LN back if I don't bond with it soon and exchanging it for more of their chisels (which I do like)?

I don't like to return tools that I've used. I REALLY don't. BUT...you bought it in good faith with the intention of keeping it, and if you are not satisfied for ANY REASON LN will be happy to take it back. Its hard to decide what constitutes fair use of returns policies like LN/LV/TFWWs. You'll have to decide what you're comfortable with, but FWIW, i think if you bought the tool with the intention of keeping it and it just doesn't vibe with you its totally fine to send it back. That's just kinda par for the course for LN or any company that deals mostly online and through mail order.

Of course, if you want to take some time to really put it through its paces before making a decision, you can use it a while and then just sell it for 85-90% of retail price if at that point it feels wrong to return it.

[David Barnett]

First, the difference in the 'prettiness' of the tool was not as large as what the online pictures would have me believe. The LV ain't a bad lookin' tool.

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN.

While I rather prefer the aesthetics of L-N planes and poke fun at the LV's looks, a lot of thoughtful design went into those LV planes. If I ever buy another non-vintage bevel down plane, it'll likely be a LV.

I feel it's fair to send the L-N back if you've only tried it and found it less to your liking than hoped.

[David Weaver]

Your last comment is really a matter of opinion. I never return anything unless it falls well short of what it claims to be. In the case of the LN, I would sell it separately, or sell it on ebay and eat the spread in the cost vs. sale.

My wife, on the other hand, wouldn't think a thing of getting five items, picking the one you like the best and turning in 4 if a policy allows.

I think a lot of times makers have to offer the 100% satisfaction guarantee type refund policy because it's demanded by the market, not necessarily because they eat the cost of doing it with a smile.

The LN 5 is a bit of a strange bird, though (in that jacks of all size and shape are very easy to find cheaply, and its attributes in how it differs vs. a common bench plane don't really translate to better use as a jack - e.g., it's flatter, heavier and has a thicker iron - the net effect of all of that is, in my opinion, less desirable for jacking than stock stanley planes). If I refrained from sending it back to LN, I would sell it on ebay as there will still be someone who wants it just because it's lie nielsen.

Up to you, though.

[Chris Hachet]

This is interesting, as my experience would kind of be the opposite. I am thinking of getting a bevel up jack plane, and am leaning heavily towards the L-N Vs. the L-V.

[Adam Cruea]

Your last comment is really a matter of opinion. I never return anything unless it falls well short of what it claims to be. In the case of the LN, I would sell it separately, or sell it on ebay and eat the spread in the cost vs. sale.

My wife, on the other hand, wouldn't think a thing of getting five items, picking the one you like the best and turning in 4 if a policy allows.

I think a lot of times makers have to offer the 100% satisfaction guarantee type refund policy because it's demanded by the market, not necessarily because they eat the cost of doing it with a smile.

The LN 5 is a bit of a strange bird, though (in that jacks of all size and shape are very easy to find cheaply, and its attributes in how it differs vs. a common bench plane don't really translate to better use as a jack - e.g., it's flatter, heavier and has a thicker iron - the net effect of all of that is, in my opinion, less desirable for jacking than stock stanley planes). If I refrained from sending it back to LN, I would sell it on ebay as there will still be someone who wants it just because it's lie nielsen.

Up to you, though.

To me, it sounds like the LN #5 jack is more of a smoothing plane than a jack plane.

I mean, to me, a jack plane should be light enough to size down stock, then turn around with possibly another iron/breaker set up and turn it into a decent smoothing plane. I actually have 2 Bailey #5 jacks for this particular reason. One has the stock iron/cb combo and is used for "hogging". The other has a LV A2 iron/cb combo and is used more for smoothing (and leaves one fine surface and pulls up lovely, fluffy curls which look beautiful in QSWO and Hickory).

[David Weaver]

I think most LN planes get used as smoothing planes, regardless of the size.

The #6 is heavy enough and in the right proportions to use it as a substitute for a panel infill plane, too, which has its virtues (though one of the virtues of the infill planes is not thrift). So long as one remembers in heavy use to push it forward and not to lean on it and create more friction to work through.

[David Barnett]

This is interesting, as my experience would kind of be the opposite. I am thinking of getting a bevel up jack plane, and am leaning heavily towards the L-N Vs. the L-V.

I have both the L-N LA jack and smoother and like both. An advantage of the LV LA smoother might be its simpler blade adjuster with no need for yoke plates and LV's blade selection.

[Tony Wilkins]

I think I'll keep it and play with it a bit more. I guess I feel at the heart of it that it's not LN's fault that I don't like it; it is exactly what it is and not defective. Maybe as I get it set up a bit more I'll grow to like it more.

[Jim Koepke]

I'll say it just flat out. I much prefer the LV to the LN. The controls and feel in my hand is much better to me in the LV. So much so that I regret getting the LN. The LN might be a bit better when I open the mouth a bit but even the relative ease in that operation is a selling point for the veritas. I'm seeing where I could do a lot with a couple of extra blades on the 4 1/2.

A few things come to mind on this.

First would be the height of your bench. A taller bench may favor the LV.

Second would be that these two planes are far apart in use most of the time.

Third the feel of these planes for me is totally different even though mine are all Stanley/Bailey planes. In your situation, you have two very different planes from two very different design styles.

If the design of the Veritas (LV) is much more to your liking than the LN you will likely find that LN would be happy to exchange your purchase for some chisels rather than have someone be less than happy with one of their products.

You may find that giving them a call and explaining your situation will be met with pleasantness and accommodations to your liking.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've always found that as attractive and professional as Lee Valley's photos are, their planes end up looking more attractive in person than the photos. That's actually a nice change compared to some places in the rest of the world, where the photos are definitely over-re-worked pictures of cherry picked examples, and not representative of what you'll eventually end up with!

I have a LN jack, although it's bevel-up; and have been thinking of picking up a vintage jack to complement it. It works fine enough for roughing work, but like Dave says, the super-flatness and fine mouth are overkill for a plane you're using for rough work, and the extra weight of a modern plane is actually somewhat of a hinderance in rough work where you're slinging it around for a long period of time.

That said, the extra precision does make it amenable to other tasks - it finds a decent amount of use in the shooting board, and for tiny work, which I end up doing more of than I anticipated, I end up reaching for it over the jointer for making things perfectly true, and basically all the jobs you're grab a jointer for for normally sized work.

That said, along the same weight concerns, I'd really love a jointer plane with the precision of a Lie Nielsen, and the weight of my vintage Millers Falls. Jacks I don't find the need for precision, and smoothers aren't hard to tune up to adequate performance as needed, but in my limited experience, jointers are worth the extra money for a nice one. (although I got by for quite some time with a particularly un-ideal jointer) That's one where I find weight a real bother over time. I ended up with a Clifton jointer for a song, and that thing outweights even the LN #7 - I'm beginning to think of turning that one around. I'm thinking a wooden jointer might be the way to go - light weight, and ideally I could keep it in accurate shape if I'm willing to invest the work in tuning it as needed.

[Hilton Ralphs]

On Saturday at my local hardware store there was this guy demonstrating some sharpening tricks and general hand plane techniques. I've never seen a Lie-Nielsen plane in person and this guy had the no.3 and scrub planes. To be honest, I want really that impressed.

Veritas seems to be steaks ahead in terms of innovation and design. You can see they have actually tried to improve on a design rather than just making it out of expensive materials. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course but when I glanced through the Lie-Nielsen catalogue, nothing really jumped out and said "but me". On the other hand, I permanently have stuff in the Lee Valley cart.

[Joe Ruden]

On Saturday at my local hardware store there was this guy demonstrating some sharpening tricks and general hand plane techniques. I've never seen a Lie-Nielsen plane in person and this guy had the no.3 and scrub planes. To be honest, I want really that impressed.

I wish there were hardware stores like that around here.

[bob blakeborough]

I have an LV BU Smoother and it is my favourite plane bar none! I even went as far as buying a bronze #3 LN a while back after being convinced that I would really love the BD planes once I tried them, and while it is a very nice, cool looking tool that is also very well built, I find the LV BUS to be a much nicer plane to use and I get a nicer job with less fuss. I am not knocking LN at all, but I too was a bit shocked I found such a difference. That said, I still like the LN, but I do find myself almost always reaching for the BUS over the #3 when the situation calls...

I also think once you get used to making one tool work for your needs, it is hard to switch to another so that may have a lot to do with preferences...

[Tony Wilkins]

Thank for all the input. I decided to throw caution to the wind and just call them. They agreed to take the plane back after I told them the situation. I'm going to exchange it for a full set of chisels and buy some DVD's along the way.

I hadn't used the LV any more than the LN but it was just so much easier to set up and seemed to just fit me first go. I was even using it with mouth wide open and fairly thick cut ala jack plane.