Electrical Help Please: Electrical Safety and Rockler

[Michael W. Clark]

This would be my concern not only for a business but for residential use as well. We all have heard stories about insurance companies wiggling out of claims on technicalities. If there were a fire (or other incident) and they could prove that the switch was what caused it - or even point to a strong possibility that the switch was involved - I can see certain insurance companies using it to deny a claim.

Reading through this post, this is what I was thinking too. I think the retailer would also insist on it for their liability or insurance reasons.

I thought someone said the chord had a UL listing tag? If so, since the chord is part of the product, would this refer to the whole product or only the chord?

[Paul McGaha]

A thread from a couple of years ago, a lot of tools don't have UL labels: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ht=no+ul+label

[Larry Whitlow]

No offense....Larry....I can't imagine a company like Rockler would be selling anything that didn't meet the safe minimum standards.

I am not convinced that OSHA regulations necessarily apply to every electronic component sold in this country. I would expect UL and other certification companies would be more than happy to post on their websites if that was manadatory.

As someone who worked on radar and communications equipment in the US Navy for 8 years and then 34 years as a field engineer for a subsidiary of J&J and later retired from GE Medical systems as an FE installing and repairing CT scanners, MR scanners, X-ray equipments, nuclear medicine cameras and ultrasound equipments I have installed a LOT of electrical and electronic components since 1969. It was only my sudden deafness 3 years ago that forced my retirement for safety reasons. I honestly don't remember ever paying attention to whether or not components had UL listings. I ordered parts from the company's parts department and installed what they shipped me. In some cases, I got that CT scanner or MR scanner up by purchasing something locally that was an equivalent. When I received an official company part, I removed the locally purchase part and installed the approved one. I worked with the confines of not only OSHA but originally the BRH which later was absorbed into the FDA.

Osha may require certain components to be certified......maybe this one doesn't require certification?

I will say this. I built a new router table this spring. I installed this specific switch assembly on that router table. I removed that switch assembly and removed the switch. In my 40+ years of electronics experience, based on a visual inspection, that switch appears to be of a significant quality that I don't mind I couldn't find a UL listing on the switch itself.

Ken, I am a regular at Rockler and agree with your first sentence. My original comment was in response to what was posted. Didn't mean to stir things up. I was associated with loss control for 36 yrs. Not an expert on reg's but had a lot of exposure (more so for fire protection equipment than elect components).

[Jim Neeley]

Jim,

The kettle gets even deeper when you start going from state to state. Certain states have extremely rigid codes and regulations.

I'm with you there, Ken.

As of May 2013,

27 States had adopted the 2011 NEC
15 States had adopted the 2008 NEC
and one "State" (District of Columbia, of course) was still at 2005 NEC.
Seven others leave it to local areas to choose to adopt, or not adopt, the code.

For example, Phoenix, AZ adopted the 2008 but Tucson, AZ is still on 2005, as is Reno, NV.

As you've said, for each of those, some states add additional requirements to the NEC and some provide exclusions, or a combination thereof.

That makes it impossible to give electrical code advice without a bunch of qualifiers and limitations. <g>

YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken, I am a regular at Rockler and agree with your first sentence. My original comment was in response to what was posted. Didn't mean to stir things up. I was associated with loss control for 36 yrs. Not an expert on reg's but had a lot of exposure (more so for fire protection equipment than elect components).

Larry,

I didn't think you were stirring things up. I hope I didn't come across being upset, I surely wasn't.

Today while doing other things I was thinking about this and remember seeing some parts like toggle switches that had the UL listing on the body of the switch. On the other hand, I don't remember having ever seen a UL listing on an active electronic component like transistors, diodes, ic's etc. I will say that my memory isn't as good as it once was.

In some applications I can see where a UL listing would be beneficial and reasonable should there be a chance someone could be endangered by a failing device.

The kicker is though, just because something is UL listed doesn't mean the ones coming off the production line were built to the same standards as the ones that were tested. It's like someone saying something was built in a factory that is ISO 9001 rated. I know of at least one ISO9001 rated factory that was shutdown for 12 months and not allowed to ship any products because they failed to maintain the proper paperwork and the FDA discovered it during an inspection. Mind you, the products were fine but the proper documentation wasn't maintained.

[Art Mann]

This is getting pretty far off topic but ISO 9000 is a pet peeve of mine. The qualification involves an auditor verifying that you have documented manufacturing procedures in place and that there is adequate reporting to assure those procedures are being followed. The auditor does not verify that those procedures will produce a quality product because, in most cases, the auditor knows nothing about the processes required for the product being manufactured. It is easy to be ISO 9000 certified and still put out absolute trash. I know because I have been the engineer responsible for the quality of certain components purchased at a large manufacturing plant. Their paperwork was impeccable but their products were not.

I doubt if the little UL sticker on a piece of equipment proves it was manufactured properly.

[Thomas Bank]

Thank you, Art. When I first fully came to understand the ISO quality management certifications, I was dumbfounded... As you say, all it means is that the method is fully documented and fully reproducible.

So you could have the following procedure for making a toasted cheese sandwich (simplified):

• Butter two slices of bread with 1/2 Tbsp unsalted butter
• Place slices of bread on griddle
• Add 26 grams of cheese evenly divided to each slice of bread
• Cook until cheese is of melted consistency
• Continue cooking until bread is burnt and smoke detector has activated
• Remove bread and cheese from griddle, assemble sandwich so that burnt bread sides are together with cheese sides out
• Place on standard lunch plate
• Serve

And that would fully satisfy the ISO process... You've documented the process and can reproduce it.

[Paul McGaha]

This is entirely a guess but I'm thinking that the manufacturers put there tools thru the UL certification when they think it's needed (to make sales). Say if schools tended to use 20" planers in their wood shops, and tended to specify equipment that was UL certified, then the manufacturers might put their 20" planers thru the UL certification so they could furnish the 20" planers for the schools. The manufacturers might have a completely different view of whether or not to put their 15" planers thru the UL certification. Just guessing here really.

[Larry Whitlow]

Larry,

I didn't think you were stirring things up. I hope I didn't come across being upset, I surely wasn't.

Today while doing other things I was thinking about this and remember seeing some parts like toggle switches that had the UL listing on the body of the switch. On the other hand, I don't remember having ever seen a UL listing on an active electronic component like transistors, diodes, ic's etc. I will say that my memory isn't as good as it once was.

In some applications I can see where a UL listing would be beneficial and reasonable should there be a chance someone could be endangered by a failing device.

The kicker is though, just because something is UL listed doesn't mean the ones coming off the production line were built to the same standards as the ones that were tested. It's like someone saying something was built in a factory that is ISO 9001 rated. I know of at least one ISO9001 rated factory that was shutdown for 12 months and not allowed to ship any products because they failed to maintain the proper paperwork and the FDA discovered it during an inspection. Mind you, the products were fine but the proper documentation wasn't maintained.

Ken, don't give it a second thought -- I did not think you were upset. My feeling is that testing labs provide a valuable service to deem an item will do what it is supposed to do and do it safely if that is of concern. Whether intentional negligence or not, sub-standard components could be produced. This could happen even with the follow up service by UL. Further, a perfect device could be installed improperly or used where it shouldn't be used. And then, there are always those property owners who will improperly modify something (one of the reasons we now use breakers instead of fuses). I think the International Organization of Standards and testing labs like UL are best practices, but nothing is going to be 100% foolproof. I would not be surprised that individual transistors, diodes, & etc don't carry the UL (or equivalent) mark. Let's not talk about memory, at least not mine. We participate in an annual neighborhood garage sale that will be happening next Saturday. The last few days I've been cranking out small bowls and boxes for the sale. Today, I cut the foot off and finished the bottom of a bowl and then realized I hadn't hollowed out the inside. That bowl now has a "decorative" mortise in the bottom.

[Larry Whitlow]

Thank you, Art. When I first fully came to understand the ISO quality management certifications, I was dumbfounded... As you say, all it means is that the method is fully documented and fully reproducible.

So you could have the following procedure for making a toasted cheese sandwich (simplified):

• Butter two slices of bread with 1/2 Tbsp unsalted butter
• Place slices of bread on griddle
• Add 26 grams of cheese evenly divided to each slice of bread
• Cook until cheese is of melted consistency
• Continue cooking until bread is burnt and smoke detector has activated
• Remove bread and cheese from griddle, assemble sandwich so that burnt bread sides are together with cheese sides out
• Place on standard lunch plate
• Serve

And that would fully satisfy the ISO process... You've documented the process and can reproduce it.

You forgot to specify that the spatula has to show a UL mark.

[Thomas Bank]

Oh, and that the griddle has to be Gen-u-wine Martha Stewart non-stick model, using a Bowie knife to cut the cheese and spread the butter, and that the smoke detector meets ANSI/UL 217.

[Ruhi Arslan]

... Rockler has an incentive to not sell an inferior product: ... they will receive bad reviews ...

Except they remove the reviews that they do not like. They have removed mine and when I questioned, I've been told it was done so because "the product was replaced with a new and improved one". Just to clarify, it was not this product.

[Paul Wunder]

I am coming to Rockler's defense even though I started this thread originally. On the Rockler website I wrote a negative review on the switch because I was not informed up front that it did not have a "UL" certification. However:

Rockler posted my negative review and sent me an email offering to let me return the switch with return shipping charges prepaid (not their usual practice).

Based upon the comments I received here at the Creek I feel more comfortable about using the switch.

I still believe that retailers should state whether a tool or appliance is "electrically certified"

I notice that Grizzly is now identifying various power tools as "SA" certified (for the US and Canada), eg their G0555 14" band saw.

Also, I just purchased an inexpensive "tool starter" switch for my shop vac (turns on the vac when a sander or other tool is started. The switch cost $19.95 and came from Sears with a UL listing. Their model number is #9-24031