Tsunesaburo Blue steel VS PMV-11

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi guys! it's been a while since I've posted here, getting myself ready for making my first guitar I've been spending most of my forum time over at the luthier's forum.


I continued working at the ergonomics of the krenov planes, and while I've got 2 that are comfortable, I realize the classics are just so much better! the bieng the german pattern and toted planes. so I have a new set of planes to build, this time slowly and with the best materials. I seriously cosidered just getting a couple metal ones... but after playing back and forth with my Woodriver no. 3 and my shop made one's... well, the woodriver feels cold and non friendly, also mine work as good or a little better, and feel much nicer.


so I'm considering which blades to get, I sold a few of my stuff to raise money and I just need to make a decision:


the Tsunesaburo blue steel ?
or Lee-Valley PMV-11?

what do you think? cost is about the same.


Thanks!

[David Weaver]

I only had a V11 iron for a little bit and then sold it off because I sold the plane that it went with. I'd imagine it holds an edge a little bit better than blue steel, but the blue steel has to be comparable in use to A2, which is significant because it's carbon steel for the most part with higher hardness and less alloying than A2 IIRC (definitely higher potential hardness where practical use is considered).

Presuming you are talking about putting these in a stanley style plane, because the tsune irons shouldn't really go in anything that doesn't have good lever cap support all of the way down (a stanley bailey or bedrock type plane does).

If you grind by hand, hands down I would take the tsune blue steel iron. The backing is soft and the super hard metal is very thin, you can literally maintain it with a medium waterstone and a fine waterstone and never grind it.

If you have a grinder, choose new school vs. old school. Given stones that will cut/hone them properly (which is pretty much limited to artificial stones or diamonds), either is superior to any vintage steel I've ever used.

(it really won't make any difference if you're making guitars, though, unless you're making them out of cocobolo)

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi David, thanks. I'm still working on the dream of having my main users shop made, so the idea was to make wooden body's for them and add a LV cap iron. with the cap Iron and a well fitted wedge it should be fine no? would you suggest somthing else? I don't love the Hock blades so much even though they are very high quality. maybe I should wait, I remember Rob saying Lee-Valley is working on a blade + norris adjuster set for woodies...

[David Weaver]

If you are going to have a shop made plane, and it's wood, and with a wedge, I would get an iron and chipbreaker set that is intended to work with a wooden plane.

Keep your eyes open to nice vintage taper iron and cap iron sets on ebay until LV or someone comes out with a modern iron that is properly shaped for wooden planes.

An example would be 120971886405 on ebay (no affiliation with the seller, i think I have bought an iron from them, though - no clue where they're getting them).

I don't know if you're focusing on smaller planes with 1 1/2" irons or something similar, I have no love for planes like that and can't make any suggestions outside the hock sets.

if you're using a lever cap, then you might prefer parallel iron sets, but you want something that's about 3/16" thick on the business end if you're making wooden planes.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes I can vouch for the plane iron shop on ebay too. They are in the UK and will send to your country too, no problem. Prices are pretty low and they have nice irons.

[Jack Curtis]

Yes I can vouch for the plane iron shop on ebay too. They are in the UK and will send to your country too, no problem. Prices are pretty low and they have nice irons.

Ditto here, too, although I don't buy those western style blades; but the Plane Shop has piles of variety, such as: old rebate blades, travisher blades, spokeshave blades, etc. The only thing to watch out for is more ebay's fault than the seller's, and that's postage and whether it actually applies to your country.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks guys, I'll check out the old ones... but how do I know what is good?


really I want something user friendly and durable like the blue steel. I have a few hock iron that I'm selling off because they are just not my cup of tea. are they old one's like the Hocks?


Also David, if you don't mind indulging me here - why does it have to be that thick for a woody? because of the wooden bed? let's assume I'm using a 8mm thick brass lever cap. the blades are 2" wide panle plane. jointer and smoother. for a rough Jack I'll use somthing else.

[David Weaver]

Less chatter. You're not going to get a woody design that allows you to have the lever cap supporting the chipbreaker right on the top like you would on a stanley plane (unless you open up the mouth). The thicker the iron is, the better it behaves when the suppoert ends further up the iron.

Generally in plane design, it's probably a good idea to examine designs that were around for a while and copy them if you can. That way, you'll have a design and elements that you're not dissatisfied with later. A wedged double iron beech plane with a tapered iron and a stanley bailey type plane are probably by far the most successful designs, but it's important to not mix and match parts when trying to make a plane that matches their performance.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Got it.... I'm going to wait and see what comes from LV in the future... I can technically make do with what I have until I find what I want. thanks again!

[Steve Voigt]

Mathew,
+ 1 on using vintage tapered irons. That's all I use anymore. The Hock irons are $50-60 with postage, whereas I've gotten most of my vintage irons for around $10. The tradeoff, though, is that you may have to spend a LOT of time reconditioning the old irons, unless you buy NOS, if you can find them.
Curious why you don't like the Hocks. I think the steel is great; my issues are (1) they're too short, even the 4 1/2" ones, and (2) they tend to clog on abutment-style planes, at least on mine. I've found that reworking the cap iron, making the bevel shallower and rounder, helps a lot.
Glad to hear you're moving on from the Krenov style. IMO, the krenov, in both its construction and use, is a great plane for the power-tool woodworker who wants to dabble in hand tools. But if you are doing serious handwork, you are going to want a tote for all but the smallest planes, and the cross pin isn't going to cut it for either chip ejection or holding power.
One thing to think about is, what do you want to use the woodies for? I like to build them because I can design a tool that is the perfect size and weight for my working methods. Like a long jointer that doesn't weigh a ton, a fore plane that doesn't have a chipbreaker to get in the way, or a little smoother that's the size of a block plane, but bevel down and with a steeper cutting angle.
But one thing I don't use woodies for is smoothing nasty woods. I don't know anything about guitar-making, but I imagine you need to create flawless surfaces on rosewood, or tiger maple, or other gnarly stock. For that, I would drink the Dave Weaver kool-aid* and get a plain old Stanley (or maybe a Record in your part of the world?) and learn to set the cap iron super-close.
What do other luthiers do for smoothing difficult woods? I'd love to know.

* just kidding, Dave

[David Weaver]

A lot of scrapers, especially on the guitars that aren't flattops.

Probably CNC machines, stroke sanders, flap wheels, etc on production guitars.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Yeah I'm working on a scraper plane design, seems like a 20degree tilt forward is a good starting point. 5 degrees like recommended in David Finks book doesn't seem to work for me. since 0.5mm is a lot in guitar making you need something that wont tear out.


I also have a woodriver no. 3 and know how to use the chip breaker to get chips that don't curl! ironic isn't it but I don't see why you can't have that in a wooden body.


***Good tip - the HSS blades from LV hold the best burr of anything I tried. just sharpen normally but at 40degrees or so and lightly burnish with a carbide rod, LV has a small one for 7$ or so.. it's easy to make the burr too big!***


Steve I don't know if I agree with you about to cross pin, mine have a stainless steel center and hold as much as I'd ever needed, including a heavy full width cuts with a 2 1\8 inch blade. changing the wedge angle a bit can make them hold even too much. on ergonomics I agree.... the krenov is not so well thought out, but is great for making special use tools

[Matthew N. Masail]

What about "galoot-tools" ? is there a reason they haven't been mentioned? Just found out they existed...

[Terry Beadle]

I have a Galoot Tools blade in a Steve Knight Bloodwood smoother that I've been using for 2 ~ 3 years now. It's the mid priced blade and not the lowest priced one. It's priced at about $90 as a laminated blade for a wooden bodied plane.

It keeps an edge very well, sharpens up quickly, requiring only a quick touch up on a 10,000 grit water stone. I've been really pleased with it. For the price it's a bargain IMO as most hand forged kanna type blades ( most of which only fit Japanese wedged kanna dies ) are well over a $100. The damascus steel blade base is a good deal better steel too.

Recommended.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Terry! I'll order one and give it a shot. I like blades that sharpen easily, like the white steel in my chisels, and holds an edge like nothing else I have/