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Thread: The Veritas Shooting Plane

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Griggs View Post
    The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction. A skewed blade is skewed in relation to the motion of the plane so it does create a shearing cut throughout the entire stroke and lowers the effective angle of attack. Took me a while to wrap my head around the difference but skewing the work piece and skewing the blade in relation to the direction of the motion of the plane are not the same thing. Though you make a good point. I suppose that if the skew of the board was as such so that it negated the skew at the entry point it it could have some cancelling effect..as you say make it closer to perpendicular. Hope that makes sense....as I right this I'm realizing that I don't know what I';m talking about...I should just stop posting.

    I'm not quite sure how/if a ramped board would benefit an already skewed blade anyway, but I believe Derek feels it does benefit the skewed bladed plane (not just the straight) and he obviously evaluates these things pretty thoroughly. Derek can probably explain it better.
    Hrm. . .I just had the epiphany about this. The ramp just basically makes it like the blade is sliding down the board being cut.
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  2. #32
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    I wonder if the fact that the blade is sorta sliding across the wood creates a slicing action of sorts..even if its not the same as the skewed "shearing" action. Now I really need to go mess with my ramped board some more.

    (says the guy who just yesterday went on and on about how he doesn't think it does that much ...maybe I've just started taking it for granted)
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Griggs View Post
    The ramp of a shooting board doesn't skew the cut the same way a skewed blade does. The board holds the wood at a skew to the work allowing the blade to start the cut progressively, but it does not create a shearing cut and thus will not negate the shearing cut of a skewed blade regardless of the slopes direction. A skewed blade is skewed in relation to the motion of the plane so it does create a shearing cut throughout the entire stroke and lowers the effective angle of attack. Took me a while to wrap my head around the difference but skewing the work piece and skewing the blade in relation to the direction of the motion of the plane are not the same thing. Though you make a good point. I suppose that if the skew of the board was as such so that it negated the skew at the entry point it it could have some cancelling effect..as you say make it closer to perpendicular. Hope that makes sense....as I right this I'm realizing that I don't know what I';m talking about...I should just stop posting.

    I'm not quite sure how/if a ramped board would benefit an already skewed blade anyway, but I believe Derek feels it does benefit the skewed bladed plane (not just the straight) and he obviously evaluates these things pretty thoroughly. Derek can probably explain it better.
    If you skew the work 20deg. and the plane slides straight forward, then the effect is the same as a 20deg. skewed blade. So it is possible to skew the work so that it counteracts a skewed blade.

    I'm not sure I agree with "blind faith".

  4. #34
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    Nah, I still think Joey has a point. The ramp certainly negates the nice skew that Rob spent millions perfecting. To recreate the skew on a normal bench plane you would need to either raise the back of the plane or raise the front of the board. On Derek's ramped shooting board, the back is raised which does nothing for a sheer cut (so I agree with this part).

    However with the forward skewed Veritas plane combined with a rear raised shooting board, you may as well just use a No.51.

    Anyway that's how I see it but it is Hump Day so anything is possible.
    "If you have all your fingers, you can convert to Metric"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Vandiver View Post
    If you skew the work 20deg. and the plane slides straight forward, then the effect is the same as a 20deg. skewed blade. So it is possible to skew the work so that it counteracts a skewed blade.

    I'm not sure I agree with "blind faith".
    Yeah, I don't agree with blind faith either.

    I'm not sure this is correct though Chris. I'm not disagreeing that it might have *some* cancelling effect, but skewing the work and skewing the blade in relation to the forward motion of the plane are 2 different things, right? Regardless of how you skew the work, the blade is still skewed in relation to the motion of the plane...its still lowering the effective angle and its still taking a shearing cut. As far as I can tell skewing the work would only effect the cut at entry. Though, I've been known to be wrong before. I guess my only point is that the skewing of the work and the skewing of the blade in relation two the direction of motion are doing to different things....this may be a totally moot point in practice though.
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 08-28-2013 at 11:18 AM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton Ralphs View Post
    Nah, I still think Joey has a point. The ramp certainly negates the nice skew that Rob spent millions perfecting. To recreate the skew on a normal bench plane you would need to either raise the back of the plane or raise the front of the board. On Derek's ramped shooting board, the back is raised which does nothing for a sheer cut (so I agree with this part).

    However with the forward skewed Veritas plane combined with a rear raised shooting board, you may as well just use a No.51.

    Anyway that's how I see it but it is Hump Day so anything is possible.
    The blade is skewed as well on a No. 51 (at least LN's version of it). Same 20* skew as Rob's, I think.
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  7. #37
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    OK, my theory:
    The ramp adds extra travel to the shooting process. lets say that you are shooting a 4" board and the ramp surface drops 1" over the 4". you have effectively pushed the plane 4" along the edge and 1" across the edge. If the amount of work (energy to make the cut (Force x Distance)) is conserved then it would feel easier. You have extended the distance by 25% so the force would drop 25%.

    My numbers are an extreme exaggeration and my theory is probably wrong anyway but maybe someone else can correct me.
    Gary

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Muto View Post
    OK, my theory:
    The ramp adds extra travel to the shooting process. lets say that you are shooting a 4" board and the ramp surface drops 1" over the 4". you have effectively pushed the plane 4" along the edge and 1" across the edge. If the amount of work (energy to make the cut (Force x Distance)) is conserved then it would feel easier. You have extended the distance by 25% so the force would drop 25%.

    My numbers are an extreme exaggeration and my theory is probably wrong anyway but maybe someone else can correct me.
    That's actually a very intriguing conjecture. Spreading the power needed to make the full cut over a longer difference...similar to how gears on a bike work. I'm just nerding out now. I just find this stuff interesting for whatever reason.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  9. #39
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    You'd actually be shrinking the distance.

    Think of a ramped board like the hypotenuse of a right triangle. The hypotenuse is always longer than the base. In essence, let's say you have a 4 inch board on a ramped board 1 inch up. Lying flat, your plane has to travel 4 inches to cut a 4 inch board. Lifted up on that 1 inch fall, though, you only have to move the plane 3.87 inches.

    A^2 + B^2 = C^2

    In this case, we know A and C. . .1 and 4. So 1 + X = 16. X = 15, and we know X is a squared number. Sqrt 15 = 3.8729833462074168851792653997824.

    At least, that's my understanding.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Cruea View Post
    You'd actually be shrinking the distance.

    Think of a ramped board like the hypotenuse of a right triangle. The hypotenuse is always longer than the base. In essence, let's say you have a 4 inch board on a ramped board 1 inch up. Lying flat, your plane has to travel 4 inches to cut a 4 inch board. Lifted up on that 1 inch fall, though, you only have to move the plane 3.87 inches.

    A^2 + B^2 = C^2

    In this case, we know A and C. . .1 and 4. So 1 + X = 16. X = 15, and we know X is a squared number. Sqrt 15 = 3.8729833462074168851792653997824.

    At least, that's my understanding.
    Adam,
    I agree and stand corrected. Thanks for the input!
    Gary

  11. #41
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    I am confused, does the ramp increase the skew or does it decrease the skew of the blade?

    Guess a cup of coffee and a bit of thinking about this is in order.

    jtk
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Muto View Post
    Adam,
    I agree and stand corrected. Thanks for the input!
    Ah yes. Me too. I missed that. I'm not fit to call myself a former math teacher
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Griggs View Post
    Yeah, I don't agree with blind faith either.

    I'm not sure this is correct though Chris. I'm not disagreeing that it might have *some* cancelling effect, but skewing the work and skewing the blade in relation to the forward motion of the plane are 2 different things, right? Regardless of how you skew the work, the blade is still skewed in relation to the motion of the plane...its still lowering the effective angle and its still taking a shearing cut. As far as I can tell skewing the work would only effect the cut at entry. Though, I've been known to be wrong before. I guess my only point is that the skewing of the work and the skewing of the blade in relation two the direction of motion are doing to different things....this may be a totally moot point in practice though.

    If the leading corner of the work is raised the same number of degrees as the skewed blade, then the effect is the blade moving through the work at 90deg.

    Now if the trailing corner is raised(the ideal)then you would have some real slicing action.

  14. #44
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    Has Rob or anyone at LV indicated that they're going to offer a corresponding shoot board?
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Herrmann View Post
    Has Rob or anyone at LV indicated that they're going to offer a corresponding shoot board?
    Hi Gary -

    No - we won't make a shooting board, there are boards already out there that this plane will fit. We will be releasing a track for planes to run in, and are working on a precision fence/head system that will allow people to make what they want.

    Cheers -

    Rob

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