comparison of General and Target top coats

[mreza Salav]

I will have a full house of cabinets, mill work, doors, railings that I'd like to finish.
I have used Target and General products somewhat but don't have experience with all of them.
I have used Target EM6000 and find it easy to use and gives good results. I have also tried EM9300 and the final result wasn't much different than EM6000.
I have used a small amount of General EnduroVar Urethane (which goes on pink and has a bit of amber tone). The application didn't seem much different than
the other two, but does have the added amber tone. There are other top coats from the two companies.

What I'd like to find from those with experience with them is which one you'd recommend for kitchen cabinets, interior doors, mill work (baseboards, mouldings, etc),
railings of stairs, and which one you would not. All are going to be sprayed using a HVLP system.

The ones I'm considering are:

- Target EM6000
- Target EM9300
- Target EM2000

- General Enduro Clear Poly
- General Enduro Pre-cat Urethan
- General EnduroVar Varnish

Aside from some being clear or having an amber tone, what would be the main difference of final result or the way the are applied in terms of durability, ease of application (self seal or requires sanding in between coats), etc?

TIA

[mreza Salav]

No comments or suggestion? There is gotta be some experienced people here, please...

[Matt Meiser]

I've sprayed a lot of EM600 for a hobbyist--probably about 10 gallons--and was pretty happy with it. A couple years ago I ran into an issue with some that didn't stick and had to respray a surface and assumed I'd done something wrong. Later, I heard of two friends having trouble (sheen and orange peel issues) with Target within the last couple years and both were dissatisfied with Target's response. Around the same time Homestead Finishing dropped Target and switched to GF as well. When it came time to do my own kitchen, I tried Endurovar based on both friends' recommendations and have no plans to go back to Target. I used Sealcoat tinted to the color we wanted with Transtint dyes then Endurovar and I really like the results. I think the appearance is more natural and I think it feels better when you run your hand over it if that makes sense? GF says sand between coats and in talking to them, all they are really recommend is that you remove any imperfections, not looking for sanding for mechanical bond as long as you're spraying your coats one after another (seems like 4 hours is stuck in my head?) I have a quart of another GF product they sent me to sample (can't recall the name off the top of my head) that is clear like EM6000 but similar to the Endurovar.

The pink stuff in the can is a little unsettling at first but you get used to it

[Jim Becker]

My only experience has been with the Target products, both current versions and two previous generations. I only had one bad experience and it turned out to be a bad batch...which they cheerfully replaced at no cost to me.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Matt and Jim. When was the change iin Target? the last time I used EM6000 was back in April and it turned out fine.

Matt: how is applying Endurovar? any tips for applying on vertical surfaces? do you apply a very thing (just mist) and multiple coats or as thick as you can get away without having runs?

[Matt Meiser]

"Change" I don't know if there was one but I saw/heard enough to make me worry.

I didn't spray many vertical surfaces--lots of doors, drawer fronts, trim, etc. Its pretty thick stuff and and I don't recall having any sags or drips. I did have a wine rack with some tricky interior spraying and didn't have any problems with that. I did find myself spraying it thick enough at first that it would take forever to dry.

[Rich Enders]

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I do not have any experience with General Finishes, but a couple years ago based on some positive postings on the Creek I used Target's best outdoor finish (according to their website). Within about a month it was discoloring on a white oak swing set that I laboriously prepped and finished with multiple coats. So I called Target Coatings and was told only Jeff could help me. After 5 repeat calls over about 10 days he picked up the phone, and told me what I used was not their best. Instead of "X" I should have used "Y", and as a favor he would sell me a gallon of "Y" at a 25% discount. So I bought it. At this point I deserved the dummy of the year award, because it seems that everything at Target Coatings was 25% off at that time.

However I bit my lip, and laboriously prepped and finished using multiple coats of "Y". About one month later it also was discoloring.

My fingers were a little worn out by now, so I left the swing set alone for about 3 months. In this amount of time the entire "Y" coat cracked and pealed.

I used "X" and "Y" because I don't recall Target's numbers, and I have since disposed of everything relating to Target Coatings. My experience was akin to Matt's.

So I laboriously prepped one more time, sprayed Minwax spar varnish (from the Borg), and two years later the finish still looks pristine.

[Bill Neely]

I'm going to try local with my next project. Sherwood (Sherwin-Williams) Kem-Aqua.

[Jim Becker]

M, the issue I mentioned was a number of years ago and it was with USL (the predecessor to EM6000), not the current product which to-date has been flawless for me.

[Alan Lightstone]

I couldn't get EM6000 to work well for me (bubbles and orange peel), so I gave up on it. I've had a much easier time with GF products. Charles Neil spoke very highly of them when I took his finishing course. In fact, most of our practice was with GF waterborne finishes. FWIW.

[Sam Layton]

A few years ago I was trying to decide what type of finish to use just as you are. I looked at both Target, and General Finishes. Looking at the Target forum, it appeared a lot of people were having problmes with Target products. I opted for General Finishes products. I have had very good luck with their products. However, I do not like, or use their water base stains. I use their oil base stains.

On an Exterior door I use GF 450 Exterior. On my kitchen cabinets I used GF Arm R Seal. On my bathroom cabinets I used GF Pre-cat Urethan. I have been very happy with all of their products except the water base stains.

Sam

[mreza Salav]

Thanks to all, so now I'm leaning towards GF.

Sam, you are the 2nd who says pre-cat Urethane for cabinets. GF itself names their EnduroVar as their top of the line product. Any reason you prefer pre-cat urethan over that?
Also, as you may now, I'm working on an entry door and am thinking of using their 450 exterior for the finish, along with their exterior WB stain (the only trouble is I don't have a
local distributer to try, so have to order it shipped to test). How do you find their 450 Exterior last?

[Sam Layton]

Hi mreza,

When I purchased the pre-cat urethane I don't remember looking at the EnduroVar. Is the EnduroVar new? I purchased the pre-cat urethane several years ago. By the way, It looks as good today as it did when I applied it. I used the pre-cat urethane on my bathroom cabinets. I used the pre-cat sanding sealer, and then the pre-cat urethane. I also added the cross-linker.

On my kitchen cabinets I used GF Arm-R-Seal. They aslo look like I just finished them. I finished my kitchen cabinets after I installed them, and I did not want to spray in the house. That is why I used the Arm-R-Seal in the kitchen. I applied it with a spong brush.

I called GF to ask them what their best finish for exterior would be. They recommended Exterior 450. I built my front door as well, and used the 450. It has been maybe 8 mo now. The door finish looks new. My door in protected by a porch, and does not get any sun.

I don't like their water base stain. For me, it is hard to apply without streaking. It dries to fast. May be if you sprayed it fast flooding it, then wipe it down fast it may work better. I like their oil base stain. It is OK to apply their water base top coat over their oil base stain. You just have to make sure the stain is completely dry. In good weather, I usually give it 3-4 days. With the 450 no sanding sealer or under coat is required. Just stain, and apply the 450.

I would just caution you with the water base stain. When I did my bathroom cabinets, I wiped on the stain starting at one end of the face frame. When I got back around to where I started, I could not blend in the stain. It dried to fast. I sanded the completd frame down and applied the oil base stain. The oil base stain is very user friendly.

The 450, and pre-cat both spray very good. I am really happy with GF products.

Sam

[Matt Meiser]

I used the water-based stain more like a toner on a maple cabinetry project and if I never do that again I'll be happy. Too hard to get even, but if I wiped it at all it blotched badly and my experiments with blotch control methods didn't get much better. As a toner, I used a ton and its expensive!

[Frank Martin]

I also used Target finishes because of the rave reviews here, but decided to go with General simply because General is locally available whereas Target is not and does not seem to offer any advantages over General.