New shop maybe??

[Neal McCormick]

I have a pole barn that I am in the process of possibly converting to a shop. The barn is 36 x 48 with a 12 x 6 bumpout at one end. There is a loft over one half of the space. The other end is open to the ceiling. There are trusses but not many in the open area. The LOML says I must use the open end of the barn for my shop (24x36 plus the bumpout). I have a few questions that I hope the folks in the Creek might be able to help me with.
1) Can I add additonal trusses to the existing structure? The existing ones are on 8 foot centers and I don't think they provide enough support to the roof when we get a lot of heavy snow. We have had a portion collapse (over the loft) about 10 years ago.
2) If not trusses, can I add additional framing to support the roof? Any ideas on how to do that?
3) Any ideas on insulating the roof?
4) I intend to frame walls inside the existing structure using 2x6's sistered to the existing poles and then 16" on center. Can I install something like TYVEK from the inside to help resist the wind? R-19 insulation in the walls is the goal although foam insulation might satisfy both needs.
5) The floor will be a concrete slab with no footers. I know this is not ideal but that is all that it can be for a myriad of reasons. Drainage appears to be pretty good with a french drain around the perimeter and I will install some additional drain lines within the structure.
6) There is electric and water but the electric must be upgraded. 200 amp service is the goal.

The end of the barn under the loft will be retained as horse stalls That end would seem to be a better area for a shop but there are many more poles and the ceiling is slightly less than 10 feet high. And I don't think I want to look a gift horse, er shop, in the mouth. I will be documenting the process - which I know will be slow as funds are not unlimited. I have followed and reread several of the new shop threads and can only hope that I can be as diligent as Frank Pellow was.

Wish me luck!

[Richard Wolf]

Sounds like you could make this into a nice shop. The first thing to be addressed is the roof structure. You should not risk tools and future constuction to a poorly supported roof. Conventional framing and truss construction do not mix easily. You do not have a ridge beam now with the trusses but need one if you where to add joists. You can add more trusses even if you have to build them in place. You can try to copy the ones that are there or redesign them for your needs.

Richard

[Bart Leetch]

Can you get pictures of the the roof support system so we can see what you have?

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like a nice building for your shop. Relative to the roof support, I suggest you consider getting a structural engineer in to look at it and provide a plan of action, if one is necessary. 'Better to pay a little for the expertise, IMHO.

[Mike Mayer]

Post-frame trusses are designed to be on 8-9 foot centers, so it could be OK. I agree that you shoud have someone inspect the roof to see if the correct trusses were used.

[Steve Stube]

I agree that dealing with any roof inadequcies ought to be #1 on the list. Poly under the floor if it isn't poured already plus structural foam about the perrimeter under the floor if you plan to heat your shop. Also poly between the shop and horse stall area as animals give off a lot of moisture that can be a rusting problem for your shop machines and tools. Drains, my advice is be real sure you have a need for them. Floor drains can be expensive especially if your local zoning requires a separate pit and drain field for them to run to. Separate as in not allowed to go to the sewer or septic system. The little water that gets on my shop floor is from foot traffic (rain water or snow), I mop it up.

I wish you the best with your new shop project, keep us posted.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Neal,

This sounds like a great project!

As much as I hate to spend money for "professional services" I think this is one case where it would be prudent. I would get someone in there to have a look at the roof and see what they would suggest you do to beef it up, if you need to at all.

[Neal McCormick]

I think I will have a structural engineer pay me a visit and get his advice. I certainly agree that I would not want to put funds and effort into a space with a substandard roof.

Let me clarify something - when I indicated I was going to put additional drainage in, I meant under the slab. There will be no drain openings in the slab. The intent is to provide a "path of least resistance for any water that might seep in under the floor. In the southwest corner the dirt is "sticky wet" (a technical term I'm sure) meaning it isn't wet to the touch but it does stick to your boots. I'm thinking an internal collar drain around the perimeter and one, perhaps two, more pipes running east-west would provide a path for any water to flow. All these pipes would be below the slab. The ground will definately freeze in the winter and reducing the water content of the soil under the slab will help reduce any heaving I'm hoping.

And I will post pictures as soon as possible. I need to read up on the process but it should be a very doable thing.

Has anyone heard of a product called "socket systems"? I was wondering if this might be something I could use to shore up the roof if needed.

As always, thanks!!

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Neal,

Getting a good base for your concrete is very important. If you currently have "sticky mud" in one of the corners, that corner will probably heave, even if you install drain tiles. The best thing to do would be to dig down to virgin dirt and then put in breaker run (large rock) and then fines (sand or other fine material). Compact the crap out of it and then pour your slab. If you would like to install drain tile, I would install it in the breaker run. We did this on a house in a swamp and it has had no problems in 10+ years...

[Steve Stube]

Neal, I misunderstood about the drains, my mistake. Let me give you something else to ponder regarding the subsoil water. I hear you about frost heaving but remember if this is an area of high water table (not just seasonal dampness) you can take advantage of the fact that the water temperature is ~53 degrees F and perimeter tile can carry away the access, assuming you have a place to drain it, but still leave you with this relative "heat sink" buffer against freezing and the migration of frost under your slab. This can be a "good thing". The result is a delta "T" of (shop temp - 53 degrees) not bad for either the heating season or terribly hot summer weather. In other words the floor will be cool in the summer so poly under it will help to prevent condensate on the floor. Dry cool is the target. Lots of other factors to consider too but food for thought.

Yes, most definately, a sand or gravel base for the floor - not sticky clay.

[Neal McCormick]

I've resized some pictures of the barn/maybe shop. I'll have to figure out the mechanics of getting text between the images but the images do appear to have uploaded properly. The first image is the barn looking from the east. Yes it is uphill. The second image is the "sticky wet" corner of the barn. This used to be a swampy area before the french drain was put in. The last 3 images are of the ceiling trusses and sidewalls.

[Neal McCormick]

The first one is the bump out area door way from the outside. The second is the view of the barn from the north. Comments and suggestions would be very welcome. Obviously the first order of business is clean the barn out. Would these count as my first "Yes I need to clean my shop up" pictures?

[Steve Stube]

Oh what shop potential I see there. If you haven't given the horses names yet maybe it's not to late to part with them :-)

From what I can see there are post between the post at the trusses making it much better for adding trusses between the existing roof supports.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

This looks to be the standard barn building method around here. You will probably be fine without additional support. A lot of the barns I have re-roofed have been built this way and they have been standing for 50 plus years. When you are roofing you put a lot of concentrated weights on the roofs. (Shingle bundles, etc), you come to find out the weak spots. These roofs have seemed very strong.

Either way, it looks like a wonderful space for you. Well worth the effort to improve it!

[Neal McCormick]

Been a while since I posted an update. Since the last post I have learned what it means to be referred to as one of "The Sandwich Generation". For those new to that term, it means you are still raising your kids and also deeply involved in the care of your parent(s). Leaves little time for anything else.

We've decided that we are going with the roof the way it is. Numerous discussions convinced me to leave it as is. Well not quite. There is some sheathing to replace and a ridge vent to install. But the trusses appear good and are consistent with other pole barns in the area. The barn has been standing for more than 20 years as is. It survived a winter where the snow collapsed house roofs. If I want absolute certainty it will hold, there is much I can do. At quite a cost. I'll go with the "nothing is certain but death and taxes" approach.

The barn is now empty and is being prepared for concrete. This has started moving a bit faster than I expected primarily as a result of the dry weather we have been having. We weren't anticipating concrete work until end of July or early August. Tuesday night got a call saying we'll be there to start prep work tomorrow!! Wife and kids emptied the majority of the barn as I had another committment. And they did it without me even having to ask! YEA!! Looks like the concrete could go in tomorrow. We are having a new pad by the garage poured also as well as some work around the front porch. Not sure if they will wait to pour all at one time or do the barn now and the rest next week. Of course all that depletes any funds for the next phase but planning is cheap and there are several nominal cost things that can be done to move the project forward. First up though is to develop a thorough plan. Plan the work, Work the plan.

I'll keep you posted!