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Thread: sharp, sharper, sharpest?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    ...and I don't know what the "k" is. I use the "fine" and "ultrafine", and then strop to maintain it, plus I use a Worksharp 3000 to establish/fix my bevels..
    That's one of the few things I do know. The K stands for thousand (kilo). 8k is roughly 8,000 grit. However, 8000 grit in stones is not the same as CAMI sandpaper grit or the FEPA "P" grits used in Europe.

    AFAIK, micron is the only objective measurement but it's not always clear what the micron size is of a particular abrasive. This link helps take some of the mystery out of sandpaper. This one adds certain stones.
    -- Dan Rode

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

  2. #17
    I think sharpening fits in the category of experience is better than analysis. If you start at it and you're not getting the results you want, make sure you raise a wire edge at each step to know you're working to the edge. After that, experience will pretty much tell you what you want without having to think so hard about it. Laziness is a beautiful thing when it breeds economy, and if you work with hand tools more than just planing off power planer chatter, you'll get there pretty quickly.

    When you get into razoring, then the little details make a big difference, but with tools, you're just trying to get a fresh edge and make sure that nothing is holding on to it before you start to work again.

    Just for curiosity's sake, I'll provide my two bits on polishing vs. sharpening. There is some arbitrary line people draw with cutting abrasives where one polishes and one doesn't, and I think it's more appropriate to say that you're cutting finely. To me, polishing has more to do with a burnishing kind of action, and the only stones that do that are settled in natural stones, but they still cut to some extent. If we polished our edges, we'd pull our hair out because of the amount of time it would take to do that, and I doubt the effect at the edge would be much better.

  3. #18
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    Limit of sharpness is paring end grain pine or shaving arm hair?

    Umm. No. In some cases the steel being sharpened limits you to that level of 'sharp', and what you're getting is serviceable for what you're doing, so it's sharp enough and for you, a satisfactory 'limit of sharpness'.

    But plenty of folks can and do use tools that are sharper than that, and an awful lot of folks don't even get that sharp. If they're happy with what they're getting, then there's no debate needed. Go forth and cut wood!

    I'm not going to say how 'sharp' I get my edges as it's a difficult thing to actually measure and quantify, but I do know that my edges are refined to a point where they don't fail due to chipping, they simply get blunt. The only time I have big chunks missing from my edges is when I've pushed the steel beyond it's capabilities and it's catastrophically failed. No amount of sharpening will change the composition of the steel, so I can't stop the steel failing in these cases aside from changing a bevel angle or just using a tougher steel.

    And I don't make 5-20 cuts, then strop the edge. I make I-don't-know-how-many-but-it's-a-lot cuts, then resharpen the edge. I'm sure that some folks will tell me I know not what I'm doing and that their sharpening method is better and whatever. Good luck to them, what works for them is not what I do.

    Stu.

  4. #19
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    Sharp, for me, means and edge capable of pairing pine end grain or shaving the hair from a forearm.
    My finest stone used to be a 4K King. It was pretty good. My sharpening improved with an 8K Norton. I am not suggesting that either of those stones are superior to other stones available.

    Paring the end grain of soft pine, producing a fine shaving and a smooth surface is a good practical test.

    Shaving hair has a wide range in grading. Sometimes if hurried, as long as a few hairs are cut and not much pull is felt, it is good to go. If a smooth cut with a shiny surface left behind is desired, then the blade has to cut a patch of hair clean with no catches or pulls.

    Beyond that is getting into the range of razor sharp where it turns into the Hanging Hair Test. My memory of the HHT would not portray it properly. There were different degrees of sharpness determined by how a free hanging hair reacted when touched by a blade. From catching on the hair before cutting to going through clean.

    Recently saw something like this on one of the cable channels about a knife maker. I think it was free hanging 1" rope that he could swing the blade at 6" or less from the end and cut through the rope.

    His knives are not inexpensive.

    Found a video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCoS81G2CY

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rode View Post
    That's one of the few things I do know. The K stands for thousand (kilo). 8k is roughly 8,000 grit. However, 8000 grit in stones is not the same as CAMI sandpaper grit or the FEPA "P" grits used in Europe.

    AFAIK, micron is the only objective measurement but it's not always clear what the micron size is of a particular abrasive. This link helps take some of the mystery out of sandpaper. This one adds certain stones.
    Daniel,

    When John said "I don't know what the "K" is, he was referring to the Spyderco ceramic stones, where (according to Spyderco) the size of the grit is irrelevant. Apparently the composition of the binder causes the effective abrasiveness to change. I don't really get it, but it does work.

    As a relative novice, I will add that getting the hardest part for me is in the final steps (highest grits) and trying not to degrade the edge by chasing perfection. Since getting the 13,000 grit Sigma stone from Stu, I no longer use a strop. For me, the edge off the 13,000 stone is as close to perfection as I will ever need, but more importantly, stropping after that stone makes my edge less sharp. I am sure it's my technique (I use the TFWW horse butt leather), but I just keep the 13,000 stone out and use it as my strop. I use the 3M diamond sheets on Plexiglass glued to an MDF backer for stropping my curved gouges, but only because I don't want to ruin my 13,000 grit stone.

    Sharpening can definitely become an obsession, so I will just reiterate the obvious - get it sharp enough to do the job and start cutting wood.

    Now if I would just take my own advice, I'd be set!

    Steve

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    My finest stone used to be a 4K King. It was pretty good. My sharpening improved with an 8K Norton. I am not suggesting that either of those stones are superior to other stones available.
    I use a honing guide and a micro bevel. I'm confident I can sharpen effectively at this point. My question is how fine do I need/want to go. With sandpaper on glass, I can easily get down below 1 micron and into the realm of truly scary sharp. But sandpaper on glass is fiddly to work with. The 3M PSA should help, the jury is still out on that one. It's also not cheap. As far as I'm concerned, sandpaper is not a long term solution for me.

    However, I think somewhere around 5 microns/8k is enough. For stones, I have a 800/4k combo water stone and a fine/extra-fine Duo sharp. I don't like either setup and neither goes far enough. I like the Duo sharp better that the water stones but I dislike the patterned mesh and extra-fine is 9 micron. I'd like to get finer.

    I like the ezlap diamond plates. They are not too expensive, a good size and have no pattern, need to lapping. However, the finest is still only 9 micron.

    Do I just stop at 9 micron and either use a strop. Sellers does just that.

    As I recall from Chris Schwarz sharpening video, he uses a 1k and 4k and 8k shapton. Thats roughly 15, 4 and 2 micron. Sounds great. However, those 3 stones, a holder and a lapping plate? around $700!

    I can get a set of Norton 3x8 double sided stones and a lapping stone for $140. That gives me 220, 1k, 4k, and 8k but I'm concerned about the quality and durability.

    Too many questions, too few clear answers.
    -- Dan Rode

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    (snippage occurred here)
    Recently saw something like this on one of the cable channels about a knife maker. I think it was free hanging 1" rope that he could swing the blade at 6" or less from the end and cut through the rope.

    His knives are not inexpensive.
    The hanging rope thing is part of the entry test for the American Bladesmith Society. Every one of their members makes knives that can pass that test. Yes, those knives can be expensive.

  8. #23
    If you're looking to try shaptons, you only need two stones. A 1k stone and a fine stone, unless you polish a whole long bevel on tools, then you need something interim. The shapton reference plate is something you absolutely can skip. Given its lack of long term durability, it makes no sense to me at all. I have never heard of an atoma that is:

    * out of flat
    * worn out completely from flattening stones

    Substitute an atoma for the reference plate, and go to japan for shapton pros and a 1k stone, finish stone and an atoma 400 to go with them would be about $220 or so.

    Unless you go with a shapton cream, though, there should be no real functional difference between it and an 8k superstone as long as you're not working too much metal.

    BUT, I wouldn't buy anything else at this point, it seems the problem is not in the equipment, but in expectations or perception.

  9. #24
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    Dave. I think you're mixing this thread up with Dan Sherman's thread? I don't believe Mr. Rode has told us what he is currently using. Based on his comments so far I'm thinking he has no stones at the moment? Is that correct Daniel? What are you currently using?

    But yes, if you buy some new stones do what Dave said. 1 medium (800-1200), 1 fine (8k+), and something to keep them flat.
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 10-02-2013 at 1:00 PM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  10. #25
    I think I'm getting old!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    I think I'm getting old!
    I think maybe, just maybe, you've responded to 1 or 2 too many sharpening threads in your life. An occasional mixup is forgivable.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  12. #27
    i can shave arm hair with 1,000 stone so i don't think it is good benchmark unless i am making my blades too sharp and that is why they don't last long. By "sharp" i mean acute.

    Veritas sent instructions with their block plane that said it is not necessary to work the back of the blade. In my experience it gets sharper using the higher grit stones on the back. do you guys sharpen the back every time you sharpen?

    David, You should have learned to play the guitar, should have learned to play them drums.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Wagener View Post
    i can shave arm hair with 1,000 stone so i don't think it is good benchmark unless i am making my blades too sharp and that is why they don't last long. By "sharp" i mean acute.

    Veritas sent instructions with their block plane that said it is not necessary to work the back of the blade. In my experience it gets sharper using the higher grit stones on the back. do you guys sharpen the back every time you sharpen?

    David, You should have learned to play the guitar, should have learned to play them drums.
    Yes, I always work the back, not just to remove the burr but to remove any wear. ALWAYS, but only ever on my finest stones.

    I believe the LV instructions are referring to the fact that their blades come lapped dead flat, so you don't need to lap them...maintaining a polish is however is still necessary.
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 10-02-2013 at 2:00 PM.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  14. #29
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    And I don't make 5-20 cuts, then strop the edge. I make I-don't-know-how-many-but-it's-a-lot cuts, then resharpen the edge. I'm sure that some folks will tell me I know not what I'm doing and that their sharpening method is better and whatever. Good luck to them, what works for them is not what I do.
    This seems like a more eloquent way of saying, "what works for you is what you should do."

    We can all sharpen in different ways and still get the job done.

    The OP mentions their current use of scary sharp and abrasive papers and the cost of this system over the long run.

    My thought on this will be different than other's thoughts.

    For me currently, an 8K stone works fine for me as the final finishing stone. If there was a bundle of money coming my way maybe one of the superfine stones would be purchased. As it is, during the winter freeze around here my finest stone is an Arkansas translucent stone. That and a strop rivals my 8K water stone. Could my blades be sharper? Yes indeed or at least I hope they can. Do they need to be sharper? Not for what I have been doing.


    For me a dual grit stone is not my way of doing things. That doesn't mean it isn't the answer for another. I like to be able to flip my stones to get a fresh surface.

    Then there are the different ways of looking at sharpening equipment. Some like the minimalist approach of having only what is needed for the job at hand. Then there are those of us who have more than is needed because we want to cover all the bases. It is enjoyable to have multiples of some stones so one can be in fine shape for straight blades and chisels and another can be allowed to be worn in to the shapes of curved blades and gouges.

    If I see good orphaned stones at a yard sale or flea market, I always ask how much is wanted for them. There are some stones that I will ignore, but that comes with the experience of already having some of these odd balls that are more like a cinder block than a honing stone.

    So what works best for anyone is the best way for anyone to go.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #30
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    i can shave arm hair with 1,000 stone so i don't think it is good benchmark
    I can get to shaving with a 1,000 stone, but it sure feels different than shaving after a 4,000 or 8,000 stone.

    It isn't just the acute angle, it is the size of the "teeth" at the edge that makes the difference.

    The bigger the grit, the bigger the tooth at the edge, the more one can feel the hair being pulled before surrendering to the edge.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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