Let me tell you about Epilog's Tech Support:

[Dan Hintz]

What I would prefer is Trotec quality without the good support for $10,000 less.

Quality costs money, plain and simple. To design a quality product takes R&D time/money. To manufacture a quality product requires QA time/money. You do not get Trotec-level quality on a China-level budget, it's as simple as that. A company could steal a quality design, removing the R&D portion of the money flow, but there still needs to be a high level of QA.

A Chinese rotary costs what, $250? A ULS rotary costs $1,250 (going from memory). I know, statistically speaking (read, barring unlucky lemons in one camp and lucky gems in the other), the ULS unit is going to outlast a Chinese unit (or have more power, or have higher angular resolution, or have less backlash, etc.). Therefore, I'm willing to spend more money to get that reliability/quality. If you're always doing shot glasses for bars with a CO2 unit, the Chinese unit is good enough from a quality standpoint, and should it die you're out $0.50 for a new glass. If you're doing high-res work on a fiber system on $100 items, the reduced risk of using a higher quality western unit would be my choice. Risk can only be mitigated, not removed, so it's a tradeoff between how much risk you're willing to take on versus the reward.

[Robert Silvers]

I know the US machines are way better. I know what after seeing the engraving examples from my thread.

I can better make my point with US supported Chinese machines.

There are people who pay 2-2.5x as much for a Chinese machine because it is supported by a US company. That is not something that I tend to benefit from as I can either fix it myself or pay $100 extra for Fedex from China, if say I need a new controller. So that that example, I would rather pay for support as I need it rather than get it for "free."

That is what I meant in that I wish there was a way to buy a US machine for $10000 less with worse support.

[Dan Hintz]

I can better make my point with US supported Chinese machines.

That is what I meant in that I wish there was a way to buy a US machine for $10000 less with worse support.

I'm still not sure what you're after, then. You have three categories to work with:
1) "Chinese machines", which you import
2) "Chinese machines with US support", which someone else paid to import and keep stock on hand
3) "US machines"

You simply will not get "US machines" at Chinese prices. If you're talking about "Chinese machines with US support", but at $10k less and worse support, well... that's the first category, a "Chinese machine", which you get to import.

Companies like Rabbit Laser often offer support for machines that weren't purchased through them, though goodwill is limited for obvious reasons. You can even purchase spare parts through them, assuming they have what you need... next-day FedExing a 100W tube from China will darn near cost you more than the machine itself cost you, so I don't think that's a fair example. Not to mention the idea a "warranty" from an overseas company doesn't hold the same water as one from a US-based firm. They could very easily tell you to pound sand if you annoy them enough (we've seen it happen) and now you're stuck without a working machine and no alternative.

In a nutshell, there's some piece of mind you're paying for with those higher-priced western machines.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm still not sure what you're after, then. You have three categories to work with:
1) "Chinese machines", which you import
2) "Chinese machines with US support", which someone else paid to import and keep stock on hand
3) "US machines"

You simply will not get "US machines" at Chinese prices. If you're talking about "Chinese machines with US support", but at $10k less and worse support, well... that's the first category, a "Chinese machine", which you get to import.

Companies like Rabbit Laser often offer support for machines that weren't purchased through them, though goodwill is limited for obvious reasons. You can even purchase spare parts through them, assuming they have what you need... next-day FedExing a 100W tube from China will darn near cost you more than the machine itself cost you, so I don't think that's a fair example. Not to mention the idea a "warranty" from an overseas company doesn't hold the same water as one from a US-based firm. They could very easily tell you to pound sand if you annoy them enough (we've seen it happen) and now you're stuck without a working machine and no alternative.

In a nutshell, there's some piece of mind you're paying for with those higher-priced western machines.

Quoted in full as it's fantastic advice.

I see it and deal with it on a daily basis Dan, soon as I finished posting I'm back to sourcing a 5/24/36v PSU for a chap who has a Chinese machine that the manufacturer no longer has that type of PSU for. Thus far he has lost days, add in the time it's taking to find a PSU (or a work around) it's going to cost him more time with no absolute guarantee that a PSU will be available.

Last night I drove 300 miles and got home 2am in the morning delivering part of a big order from one of my regular customers who is going overseas Friday and needed the stuff. If I had one Chinese machine that had gone down the chances of that customer coming back after I let him down is close to zero.

I've heard all the justifications for direct imports and the numbers simply don't stack up, the lack of training and support costs...nothing is free in any business and I simply do not have the time to wait 3 weeks for a problem to be resolved while I fob off customers.

I'm in a lucky position, I have quite a few machines and a good percentage are Chinese BUT I expect problems with them hence the reason I bought them from a UK supplier who is at the end of a simple phonecall when I need them.

Singular direct import machines are a common fallacy for business use, the model quite simply doesn't work. I know Rod has a few directs but he's a man at the top of his game and not an entry level newbie so has the experience to fix what China can't.

Fault finding on lasers can be a nightmare, cascading problems often NEED on site from the machine supplier, if I have to spend 10 hours chasing an intermittent problem rather than working on using my other machines while my supplier fixes the problem I am losing money.

The easiest question for me is usually "you saved $4k on the card price, but took 2 weeks to set the thing up and self teach the idiosyncrasies they come with, who paid for those 2 weeks?" time costs, somebody somewhere ends up paying and I don't want to be in a position where the person paying is me

Nobody get me wrong, I love Chinese machines but consider them disposable

cheers

Dave

[Mike Null]

Robert

Here's your $10,000! Consider what you'll get out of a Trotec or Universal after several years of use. When I bought my Trotec over 6 years ago I sold my 8 year old ULS 25 watt machine for $7000. I've had offers on my 45 watt Trotec at over $10,000.

[Robert Silvers]

I have said this already but I would prefer a US machine with less support for less money.

[Martin Boekers]

I would say that fixing a design defect is just normal, and neither impressive or unimpressive. What is impressive are companies that fix stuff that was your fault and not theirs. And while I appreciate those companies, I don't think they need to fix stuff that is not their fault.

Hmmmm what would actually be considered a design flaw or an improvement to the design? I have dealt with many companies through the years as I'm sure others have also, that have refused to repair, refund or whatever, even though there manufacturing issues with it. So I commend companies that stand by their products. It would have just as been easy to say, yup, you need a new motor $500. Instead they acknowledged that improvements have been made and stood by them. Sorry that your Waverunner & Subaru weren't bad enough for a recall....

[Mark Ross]

This is exactly why we have two Epilog 36 EXT's and are getting close to a 3rd. Service and support second to none. On our Epilogs, I do however have to deal with the chiller. But the chiller is the guy that gets paid to sit there and change material and watch for fires and design Corel files...hehe...air cooled machines are SO much easier to deal with. As long as there is air, the machine runs.

[Larry Bratton]

After 6 years with my Epilog EXT, I am treated like a member of the family at Epilog. I just replaced a tube a few days ago and although they were backordered on Epilog tubes, they offered me a Coherent tube. The Epilog tube was 18 months old and thus in warranty. I get the same support today as I did when the machine was brand new. I rarely call them but deal with tech support via their online Chat. If you haven't tried it, especially you folks that are in other than the U.S. you really should. I have dealt with lots of different entities in my business life, but none, and I mean none are even close to them in tech support or service.

[Mike Spease]

I also agree with how good Epilog is. I recieved a used Legend 32 in trade for some design work. The carriage that holds the focus head had stripped threads so that it would not hold the head. My local rep told me to super glue it or tap out the threads to a larger size. I called Epilog and spoke to Brian. After they discussed my issue they sent me a new carriage head free. The machine is a 2001. Now that is going above and beyound with customer care because they did not want me to make my laser into a frankenstein machine. Also Ian is great with assisting me when I have an issue when it comes to getting cuts to come out correct

[rich shepard]

Brian and Ian are two of the best there is, and will not try to sell you a new part ( just because they can) if there is a way to try to get you back up and running with out it