Need a Sharpening System Recommendation

[don dsrekab]

Hi All, I am new to SMC and was looking for some opinions. I'm also just getting into hand tools and am about to make the big sharpening system decision and was looking for some input past some of the other things I've been seeing. The basics of what I have read so far are (please feel free to correct any misconceptions I have on these points):

Oilstones:
Last a very long time, most likely longer than my lifetime given that I'm not woodworking every day (in fact not even every weekend).
They cut slowly, so its best to use them with something else for grinding, then hone and polish with the oils.
Moderate mess, between water and Scary Sharp (I don't really have a feel for this or even how to quantify it.
Cheapest system over a lifetime.
Oils your tools as you sharpening so it could help prevent rusting

Waterstones:
Must be flattened after every use.
Cut very quickly
Messiest of the three with most people sharpening near a sink to deal with the water mess.
Medium price over a life time, even though some of the stones can be pricey to get started.
Care must be taken to thoroughly wipe down tools after you are finished to prevent rusting

Scary Sharp:
Float glass never needs flattening
Can cut quickly, if you use a low enough grit.
Cleanest of the three systems, however, mess is more harmful as the metal particles can easily be inhaled.
Low cost to get started, however highest cost over a lifetime due to constant abrasive replacement.


So, those are the datapoints I have so far, I'm wondering if members could provide any added detail that may help me make a final decision. I know you can get a decent edge with any of the three, it just takes practice and I'd like to spend my practice time with the system I think will work best for my long term.

1. Do all three systems need to be stropped or can you get a keen enough edge without (I assume on the higher grits of waterstone stropping isn't necessary, but wanted to confirm)?
2. My workspace is in a non-temperature/humidity controlled garage (in the Midwest), so I can't leave waterstones in water in my workspace. Sharpening in the kitchen isn't option. Do Shapton waterstones work ok without soaking?
3. Does anyone have a way to quantify the "mess" of waterstones. that's the main complaint I've read (along with fast wearing), water gets everywhere, the water in a bath stinks after awhile, water gets on other tools/projects, etc.
4. Is getting all of the oil off a tool difficult? I assume left over oil could affect water based finishes
5. Any other insights into any of the systems that may be helpful?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance,
Don

[Chris Griggs]

Don't waste your time and money with scary sharp for anything other than coarse regrinding and flattening (sorry SS lovers, that's just how I feel). My preference is for water stones, but in the winter my basement can get a little cool and my oils stones start to make more appearances.

For you, something w/o water might be a good idea, but that doesn't relegate you too just true "oil stones".

For you I reccomend:

1) 80 or so grit PSA back sandpaper stuck down to granite for heavy grinding and flattening backs. A 6" grinder is nice to have too.

2) An eze-lap plates for initial rehoning (that is bringing up a fresh edge on a blade that isn't badly damaged. The grit level of the one I linked one I linked too I'm told does the work of the 1k stone...don't let the word "fine" fool you (I don't have this btw but I trust the people I know who do. (a med india will work here too, for cheaper, it just won't cut as many steels as quickly, should still be fine 99% of the time and it CHEAP)

3)Anything, that'll bridge from the diamond (or med india) to the final step. I don't usually use an intermediate step but diamonds supposedly leave deep grooves so could be advisable here. Also nice when working larger areas of steel. Options here are the next level in finess of ezelap, some type of arkansas stone (a soft ark maybe), a spyderco ceramic stone....options abound, and you might ultimately find this step unnecessary.

4) a $5 stick of any type of honing compound or $5 tube of diamond paste (about 1 micron or less in either case) applied to a piece of mdf.

Again, this is not my main setup, I typically use a pair of water stones. I do however own and use a rendition of the above recommendation (but use a Washita arkansas stone or med india in place of the ezelap) and if I was in a freezing garage I would likely add ezelap for when I need something fast or to cut odd steel, and just stick with something like this.

You can of course add a hard arkansas or something in there if you want a really fine stone, but 1 micron honing AlOx/CrOx compound or 1 micron diamond paste will cut faster and give you a finer final edge in, so despite how much I love my surgical black arkansas, I tend to skip it when I'm using this setup with compound.

(Or ignore all the above, just buy these and keep them inside. Honestly a "set" of waterstone is probably going to be the quickest easiest way to get good consistent results. While I like several types of sharpening media in addition to waterstones, I do think good quality waterstones have the shortest learning curve)

[Adam Petersen]

I started scary sharp, went to a Worksharp 3000 and am now at, and will stay forever with, waterstones. They by far are the easiest I've tried. They are messy, and care must be taken in the winter but I've not had any issues in South Dakota's winters if I take them inside in a smaller tupperware container.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

My choice is diamond stones and honing compound on leather. Until I started doing that for great majority of my sharpening, I preferred suffering with dull tools to suffering with water stones and associated mess, cleanup, drying, flattening, and especially end-of-session cleanup when I really must to go to bed, but instead have to rinse and dry jigs, stone holders etc. Now my planes and chisels are always sharp and I have nothing to clean up or prepare.

[Lloyd Robins]

Certainly not an expert, but I like diamond stones and oilstones. I am currently using diamond stones. You might want to look at this video as a help in making your decision http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM . That said most heavy users and professionals use waterstones. I understand that Tools from Japan (Stu) has pretty good prices right now.

[Jim Koepke]

Don,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate your location. You do mention midwest so it is likely too far for you to pop over some time to give my set ups a test drive.

Most of the time my tools are sharpened on water stones. Being a contrarian my stones do not get flattened after every use. Maybe if my nature was more of a perfectionist they would get the full treatment.

During the winter it actually gets below freezing in my shop. There is a small heater to blow a bit of warm air my way, but it isn't enough to keep the water from freezing. So that is when my sharpening is on oil stones.

In my lifetime my assortment of oil stones is still less than $100. Many of them have been found at yard sales and flea markets. Even picked up some nice translucent Arkansas stones at a Gem & Mineral show.

My water stones are more in the $200 and up range. If there was money burning holes in my pocket right now the set at Tools From Japan that Chris linked would be on its way.

For power honing needs the Veritas Mk II Power Sharpening system works very well for me. Recently a hand crank grinder was acquired.

There are also some diamond hones in my arsenal. They mostly get used for the kitchen knives.

Every system has advantages or disadvantages.

Some oil stones can actually cut quickly. It is just a matter of finding them. A couple of my "Lilly White" stones amaze me at how fast they remove metal. My only wish is that some larger then 1" wide can be found someday. The market doesn't carry as wide of a variety as it did years ago. Oil stones are also much harder and not as likely to suffer gouging from aggressive sharpening. Some of the newer metal combinations might not be abraded by oil stones.

Water stones are fast, but as you know they wear about as fast as they cut. An errant stroke with a blade can leave a nasty depression. This is why my curved blades are almost always done on oil. After an 8,000 stone my blades are often put to work without stropping. A 4,000 stone gets a tool sharp enough to do a lot of work, but the keener edge off of an 8,000 is clearly better. With a 13,000 it would likely be a waste of time to strop. For me depending on how long of a strop is being used 3 strokes on either side is usually all the stropping a blade needs to remove any burr and shine the bevel.

If you can keep your stones out of a freezing situation, water stones may be your best choice for their abilities on modern metals and to produce a slightly better edge. With a little work and some stropping my oil stones can get pretty close to the edge obtained with water stones. My shop has a dedicated area/surface for my water stones and another for my oil stones. They do not mix. Even a tool that has just come off of an oil stone needs to be cleaned very well before it will cut right on a water stone.

You might want to consider choosing based on the metal in the blades your tools will have. If you like Veritas planes and want to use their newest blades my understanding is you will need water stones to work them to an edge.

Someone else is likely to know more about the limitations of sharpening with the different metals.

My sharpening needs includes wood working tools, axes, shovels and various other implements as the desire hits me.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I have three abrasives for sharpening edge tools, listed in descending order -

Atoma Diamond plates using machine oil, rather than water as lubricant.
(No rust)

Heavy wet/dry carbide sandpaper for flat grinding on a granite substrate.
(Mainly for getting things flat.)

For really pitted edge tools that I can't file, or grind on the sandpaper above (because the steel is too hard)
I use the Sander/Grinder with narrow belts as sold by Lee Valley tools.

My shop is much like your garage, it's not controlled for temperature or humidity - both of which climb in the summer.

Using either oil stones or diamond plates with honing oil will do away with a water bath, but you will generate dirty rags.
Oil soaked rags are a fire hazard, so reasonable precautions are in order, disposing of the rags.

I have owned and sold the Shapton stones, as they still require flattening prior to use.
I've seen the best quality edges generated with fine waterstones, but that's beyond the keen-ness required to get a good finish on Cherry, my wood species of choice.

I follow the hand sharpening method as shown by Paul Sellers, which requires considerable downward force to work quickly.
If you don't have strong hands, or tire quickly, the method demonstrated by Deneb Puchalski from Lie Nielsen tool works is fast and repeatable.

I do not advocated the scary sharp method as sandpaper is very expensive over the course of years and generated lots of dust that is easily transferred to my workpieces.
(I sharpen and grind in the same space I make my furniture.)

FWIW - if you are just starting out, and money is an issue good oil stones and a method to keep them flat represent an excellent value for money.
I would buy the Atoma diamond plates, first - were I to do this all over again. They're expensive - but they start and stay flat, cut fast and clean up is easy.

[Curt Putnam]

At this point in my journey, I differentiate between "honing" and "sharpening."

Sharpening is for damage repair, initial edges, flattening and other chores of that ilk. I use sandpaper or diamond in that range and use power wherever I can. I have a 1" x 42" belt sander/grinder and a Worksharp 3000 that make these chores easier.

Honing (for me) starts with my 1K stone and proceeds through the 6K and 13K stones that Stu sells as a set. The Atoma 400 is reserved for stone flattening. I find this system to be less messy than using oil. These stones happily cut the PM-V11 steels. I use a Veritas MKII honing guide because my hands are too shaky to ever achieve a good frehand edge.

My advice ($0.02) is to simply go to Stu's site (Tools from Japan) and order the three stone set. It comes with a really cute and especially useful tray that keeps the stones from moving and contains slurry slop. IIRC, the Atoma 400 is part of the set - if not you want it and should get it. Very necessary.

[Prashun Patel]

1) Not all waterstones need to be flattened after every use.
2) I have Shapton 1000 and 8000 stones. They don't require soaking; just a spritz. This greatly helps (me) with mess and convenience.
3) Equally important IMHO for new sharpeners is a reliable method for holding the blade at the correct angle. Consider a honing guide to start.

[Jim Koepke]

At this point in my journey, I differentiate between "honing" and "sharpening."

Sharpening is for damage repair, initial edges, flattening and other chores of that ilk. I use sandpaper or diamond in that range and use power wherever I can. I have a 1" x 42" belt sander/grinder and a Worksharp 3000 that make these chores easier.

Honing (for me) starts with my 1K stone and proceeds through the 6K and 13K stones that Stu sells as a set. The Atoma 400 is reserved for stone flattening. I find this system to be less messy than using oil. These stones happily cut the PM-V11 steels. I use a Veritas MKII honing guide because my hands are too shaky to ever achieve a good frehand edge.

My advice ($0.02) is to simply go to Stu's site (Tools from Japan) and order the three stone set. It comes with a really cute and especially useful tray that keeps the stones from moving and contains slurry slop. IIRC, the Atoma 400 is part of the set - if not you want it and should get it. Very necessary.

One of my wishes is to be able to put so much wisdom in to so few words.

By your differentiation of two aspects of what amounts to metal working there is a base from which one can build their tool maintenance system.

The make up of a system for one set of chisels and a few plane blades can be minimal. My vote would be to flinch once and contact Stu.

A sharpening system for care of tools from multiple trades or made over multiple centuries will likely be a bit larger.

jtk

[Harold Burrell]

.
My advice ($0.02) is to simply go to Stu's site (Tools from Japan) and order the three stone set. It comes with a really cute and especially useful tray that keeps the stones from moving and contains slurry slop. IIRC, the Atoma 400 is part of the set - if not you want it and should get it. Very necessary.

I very much agree.

[Don Dorn]

So many ways that work. Personally, I've been using diamond stones for a long time. Now, I use Paul Sellers method and really like it, but prior, I used a guide and used a secondary bevel. Frankly, that worked very well too and produced edges that were just as sharp.

I like this system because of the lack of a guide which makes it faster and my experience is that the convex edge does seem to take more of a beating before needing to resharpen. The other thing is that I've kind of developed a slight "slapping" method on the 220 stone and it seems to get me a bur more quickly - even if I let the edge go too long. I enjoy reading about everyone else s method that works for them - just shows that no one has ownership of the "best" system.

[Stew Hagerty]

Don, I recently went through exactly what you are right now.

Before I got sick I was a general contractor so, when I started to do woodworking, I was all about power. Oh, I had a set of "chisels" that were left over from my construction days. I looked around for a way to sharpen them as well as my Stanley block plane. I bought a Worksharp 3000. To be honest, it does a pretty good job.

However, as I began to migrate more and more to handtools I realized that, for me at least, the Worksharp was not very practical. First of all, my right hand and arm (yup, Of course I'm right handed) Tend to twitch from time to time which can cause problems when you're trying to get a razor edge on a rapidly spinning disc. I ended up with lots of rounded corners and gouged paper even when using the platform system for wide blades.

So began my search...

I did just like you; comparing data and statistics, asking advise on here, searching the web.

Then finally, out at Handworks in Iowa, I got the chance to sit down with Chris Schwarz and discuss it at length. You see I had been wanting to speak with him after seeing an episode of Woodwright's Shop where he told Roy that he had recently switched BACK to oilstones from waterstones.

In a nutshell, what he said was that oilstones will cut even A2 steel just fine but not quite as quickly as waterstones do. He switched back because of his travels. It is easier to transport what he needs for sharpening with oilstones.

He pretty much reiterated everything that I already knew. Which actually is what sold me on the oilstone system. Coming from him, I believed it. He also suggested that I add some India Stones for course work.

So... Here is what I ended up with:

From Norton Coarse India, Medium India, and Fine India
From Dan's Whetstones Soft Arkansas, Hard Select Arkansas, and Black Arkansas

All of the stones are 8" x 3" x 1/2"

The coarser 2 India stones tear through steel while the Fine India prepares the surface for the supposedly slower cutting Oilstones (In case you aren't aware, India Stones are also Oilstones). The Soft Arkansas polishes down what is left of the India scratches fairly quickly. Then, it is on to the Hard and Black stones for final honing. By adding the India Stones into the mix, it doesn't take long at all for the Arkansas stones to hone even A2 steel to a shave-worthy state.

I am extremely pleased with my system. The only thing that I have added is a strip of T4WW's Genuine Horse Butt for stropping. I use it mostly to refresh the tips of my paring chisels every so often while using them.

I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever. It works, it's fast, and it is nearly mess free.

If you have any questions or just to talk about it like I did with Chris, I'd be happy to discuss this with you anytime.

[Mike Henderson]

I use a WorkSharp 3000 to establish the bevel and then Shapton stones to put a microbevel on. Fast, easy and gives an excellent edge.

Mike

[David Peterson]

Another vote for Shaptons.
I use 320 wet sandpaper to get an edge (if needed) then go to the 1K, 4K, 8K Shaptons to get sharp. I don't have a lot of time for woodworking and found the maintenance of traditional waterstones too much trouble. Shaptons are a sprit of water, hone, strop and go. After that, the 4K and/or 8K are all that's needed for maintenance. I've started doing away with the microbevel. I freehand sharpen and it's helpful to have the entire edge on the stone. If I want to reestablish a new bevel angle I'll use a grinder and sharpening jig before getting to the stones, taking the time to get rid of the hollow grind.