David Savage on Blue Spruce chisels

[Hilton Ralphs]

Source: from an email I received this morning.

I love to see the development of hand tools in my lifetime. Some of the most inventive new products have come from two North American companies; Veritas, and Blue Spruce, a new company. I first saw Blue Spruce's tools a couple of years ago when I bought one of their beautiful marking knives and that tool is still one of my favourites. It is easy to categorise these tools as boutique tools. Certainly they fall into the same lineage as "Gentlemans Tools". These tools made were in the Victorian period for the weekend craftsman often with ebony handles and shiny brass fittings to differentiate them from the tools of the ordinary working man. But we all like shiny and it's nice having well made blades and comfortable fitting handles for a change.


I first saw the Blue Spruce new range of chisels about a year ago when one of my students bought a set of the dovetail chisels. Since that time they have brought out a slightly heavier set of bench chisels which I think are more suitable for the furniture maker. Blue spruce make exceptionally well engineered products the backs of the blades are absolutely dead flat and the bevels are grounds very close to the back of the blade making for good sightlines. However they are heavier than the conventional carbon steel blade but lighter than the Lie Nielsen equivalent. The bevel edged dovetail chisels are slightly different in that they have a very much lighter blade and construction. These tools are not really meant for heavy malleting they can be tickled lightly with nylon hammer but that's about as far as you could go.

Attractive though that these blades are and they are very attractive handles beautifully turned, the finish is reinforced with a resin that toughens the fibres of the timber. Clearly they have been designed and made with quality in mind and that is very pleasing. But these babies would not find a place in my heart. especially the beautiful light bevel edged blades and pairing chisels. Why? well it's a matter of function, the function of a blade of this kind is to be able to cut timber to sever the fibres of timber. Rather than choosing a steel like high carbon steel that takes the very keenest edge Blue Spruce have chosen A2 steel. A2 steel holds a very good edge for a very long time especially when it is above 30° honing angle. However our tests have shown when we are honing at a lower angle nearer 25 degrees or even below 25 degrees for hand paring the A2 steel does not take as keen an edge as it is possible to get on high carbon and crucible steel blades. So I am sorry to say that I have to stick with the steel bananas.

Other blades than have found a place in our hearts are from Japan. is what the Japanese would call dovetailed blades or "Umeki Nomi" these have the benefit of the laminated construction that heating and hammering that seems to improve the structure of the steel and unlike most Japanese blades these are thin and well formed with bevels similar to a western pattern.

[Steve Thomas]

Thanks for sharing again HR, pretty solid statement.
In my experience with other wood workers, most are not able to get the keenest edge even on high carbon steel, so a nearly sharp A2 blade for the woodworkers I've come across, does indeed out perform a nearly sharp High Carbon blade owing to its longevity.

Perhaps when splitting hairs right at the pointy end of what is sharp, there is a difference? I've not got an A2 chisel to compare with. (i've old Witherbys)

[Derek Cohen]

There is a glaring inaccuracy in David Savage's criticism of the Blue Spruce chisel.

David Savage extolls the virtue of Japanese chisels ("Other blades than (sic) have found a place in our hearts are from Japan".).

He criticises Blue Spruce for honing their blades at 30 degrees. Not because the steel is A2, but because it is honed at 30 degrees - and remember, these are bench chisels, the same as the Japanese. ("A2 steel holds a very good edge for a very long time especially when it is above 30° honing angle. However our tests have shown when we are honing at a lower angle nearer 25 degrees or even below 25 degrees for hand paring the A2 steel does not take as keen an edge as it is possible to get on high carbon and crucible steel blades. So I am sorry to say that I have to stick with the steel bananas.")

BUT ... Japanese blades are also honed at 30 degrees!

If that is the sum of his argument, then he has no basis for his criticism.

I have read David Savage for more years than I should have. I do so in some type of morbid fascination. I am not keen on his designs, but credit him for his daring. I think that he is arrogantly outspoken in a way that is designed to sell himself as an individualist, the anti-establishment. He is really just selling his courses.

Yet in amongst all this he has some gems of wisdom. But that is for another thread.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

About 30 degrees on bench chisels ..

My experience, which is backed up by a few experiments I have posted here and on my website, demonstrate that all steels perform at their best on hardwood at 30 degrees if they are used with a mallet or hammer. Unless you are pushing a chisel, a blade at 25 degrees is not going to hold an edge for long.

Hone a paring chisel at 20 - 25 degrees by all means. My paring chisels (Japanese slicks) are honed at 25 degrees.

My bench chisels with blade widths from 3/4" and down are likely to be used with a mallet or hammer. These are honed at 30 degrees. Wider bench chisels spread the load and need the assistance of a lower angle to penetrate, and are honed at 25 degrees.

All Japanese bench chisels are designed to be used with a hammer (gennou). A Japanese dovetail chisels is just a bench chisel. All are honed at 30 degrees. The hammer is not to force the chisel through the wood. It is a means of achieving a precise shaving. Use of a hammer is about precision not aggression.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Not all japanese blades are sharpened at 30 degrees. I scored a set of ouchi bench chisels for what is a relative song for ouchis (a little less than half of new) and they still have their lacquer on and are ground from the maker at almost exactly 25 degrees. I haven't used them enough yet to know if they'll need to be adjusted, but I'd suspect they might be decades old. (and I have another set that's ground at 30, anyway, so there's no reason to adjust them). They are the exception from what I've seen, though

As far as the criticism of A2, I personally would prefer a hand forged carbon steel blade, too, but who makes chisels like that other than the japanese and barr? The use of A2 is fine, I'd suspect savage is either using a sharpening medium or mediums that are not appropriate for A2. I can't tell a difference in sharpness on A2 if the right things are used to finish it.

I do agree that he appears to be using negative opinions of various things to sell himself as something differentiated from others. Seems to be a common UK theme! (except our david charlesworth doesn't resort to any such thing).

[Hilton Ralphs]

My experience, which is backed up by a few experiments I have posted here and on my website, demonstrate that all steels perform at their best on hardwood at 30 degrees if they are used with a mallet or hammer. Unless you are pushing a chisel, a blade at 25 degrees is not going to hold an edge for long.

Derek, have you tested the Veritas PM-V11 bench chisels which have a bevel angle of 25 degrees (apart from 1/4 and 3/8)?

[David Weaver]

(Hilton, I'm entertained by these savage reviews, don't get me wrong based on my responses)

[Hilton Ralphs]

(Hilton, I'm entertained by these savage reviews, don't get me wrong based on my responses)

Roger that.

[Chris Griggs]

Derek, have you tested the Veritas PM-V11 bench chisels which have a bevel angle of 25 degrees (apart from 1/4 and 3/8)?

I haven't done true test of it but, my 1" PMV11 is honed 25 degrees. It holds an edge very very well at that angle. Like most steel, below 25 it fails to easily. But I've never used a steel that I was happy with below 25 degrees...even the couple vintage parers I find the edge gives up very easily in hardwood below 25, even just with hand pressure. Anyway, 25 degrees for PMV11 is very very good. I'd still probably raise it to 30 for moderate to heav chopping but on my 1" chisel (which is my only PMv11 chisel) that I really only use for paring, flushing, and light chopping 25 degrees is excellent. Better than any other steel I have in my shop (excluding maybe my KI parers) at 25 degrees.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, have you tested the Veritas PM-V11 bench chisels which have a bevel angle of 25 degrees (apart from 1/4 and 3/8)?

Hi Hilton

No. I have only tested the 1/4" chisel, which was at 30 degrees. The comparison was with A2, O1 and White Steel and involved chopping not paring.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...sCompared.html


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

He seems to be great at building a strawman;

Why critique paring chisels about the fact that they are not intended to be banged on? He is critiquing them as bench chisels, why not critique the bench chisels instead?

In the Lie Nielsen critique he goes on about Lie Nielsen using a2 when they also offer O1 chisels at 25 degrees. So why not buy the 25 degree o1 chisels and critique them?

[george wilson]

Savage cannot even write very coherently. I fail to see the point in this daily discussion of his views,really. Is "pairing" a valid English spelling for "paring"? I hope he knows how to correctly spell the names of his tools. He makes long,run on sentences. Some of them switch meanings in mid stream. That makes them confusing.

"Attractive though that these blades are and they are very attractive handles beautifully turned,the finish is reinforced with a resin that toughens the fibers of the timber." WHAT kind of convoluted writing is THAT?????? That is one example.

If he is going to write things for public consumption,I think he should get an educated secretary to edit his scrambled,rambling points. If he CHARGES for his writings,the sin is multiplied!!

[Zach Dillinger]

Savage cannot even write very coherently. I fail to see the point in this daily discussion of his views,really. Is "pairing" a valid English spelling for "paring"? I hope he knows how to correctly spell the names of his tools. He makes long,run on sentences.

"Attractive though that these blades are and they are very attractive handles beautifully turned,the finish is reinforced with a resin that toughens the fifers of the timber." WHAT kind of convoluted writing is THAT?????? That is one example.

If he is going to write things for public consumption,I think he should get an educated secretary to edit his scrambled,rambling points.

I've asked that question to myself several times... who is David Savage anyway? This isn't to say his views shouldn't be heard, but I'm not sure why we have been focusing on them. He is just one of a million woodworkers with his own opinions on stuff. Hardly Gospel.

[Chris Griggs]

I've asked that question to myself several times... who is David Savage anyway?

Well based on a google search I think he is either a researcher as UC Berkley, a former professional footballer, who last played for Southern League Premier Division side Oxford City as a midfielder, or a furniture maker who charges people money (?) to receive his recycled crap email content.

[Zach Dillinger]

Well based on a google search I think he is either a researcher as UC Berkley, a former professional footballer, who last played for Southern League Premier Division side Oxford City as a midfielder, or a furniture maker who charges people money (?) to receive his recycled crap email content.

Ahh, thank you for that chuckle. More power to him if he gets people to pay him for his thoughts like that.