David Savage on Blue Spruce chisels

[Chris Griggs]

Ahh, thank you for that chuckle. More power to him if he gets people to pay him for his thoughts like that.

Though, I think I was wrong about the charging money for the email thing...for some reason I thought I saw someone post that. Looking at his site though it looks like you don't have to pay for the emails...I think you might have to pay to stop receiving them though

[Ray Bohn]

He makes long,run on sentences. Some of them switch meanings in mid stream. That makes them confusing.

"Attractive though that these blades are and they are very attractive handles beautifully turned,the finish is reinforced with a resin that toughens the fibers of the timber." WHAT kind of convoluted writing is THAT?????? That is one example.

I know of a few people with RTG* disease, but normally it affects the topic from one sentence to another. This appears to be a newly discovered mutation of RTG - changing the topic mid sentence. I will be looking forward to reading a study of this previously unknown malady in The Lancet.



RTG - Random Topic Generator

[Tony Wilkins]

Looks like he objects only to the use of A2 that how about those videos of the knockdown game monopoly is my favorite board feet to make a table. Seriously though I was all set to let launch since I respect Dave as a fine man and great tool maker.

May I introduce the high jack for this thread please Hilton? Talking about paring chisels, IIRC his long parers and dovetail parers are A2. I don't recall what angle they are ground at but generally what is the thought on A2 chisels for paring and grinding angles for them?



btw if you pair chisels do you get mini baby chisels?

[Jim Koepke]

Savage cannot even write very coherently. I fail to see the point in this daily discussion of his views,really. Is "pairing" a valid English spelling for "paring"? I hope he knows how to correctly spell the names of his tools. He makes long,run on sentences. Some of them switch meanings in mid stream. That makes them confusing.

I had to reread it a few times to make sure he wasn't contradicting himself. It is reminiscent of my own writing after having an extended release of the Kraken. Fortunately for me, and everyone else, those are usually deleted after they are composed.

(In case you do not know, Kraken is a rum of which I am particularly fond.)

I doubt if my writings on anything would make a lot of sense. Most likely my conclusion would be something like, "heck if it works for you so much the better."

If you can't knock 'em, why write about 'em? Just may be Mr. Savage's motto.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, my writing improves after one scotch, but declines after two.

[george wilson]

I thought kraken was what your skull did after a few good tokes.

[dan sherman]

I thought kraken was what your skull did after a few good tokes.

Kraken is good stuff George.
http://www.krakenrum.com/

[george wilson]

I would not have made a good sailor. I just don't like rum. Actually,I'm not very keen on alcohol anyway,except to knock myself out when I can't sleep!!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It seems he is getting what he set out for- controversy. Make fun of some of the most respected tools in the trade, sit back and let the internet spread your name all over. I will buy a set of Blue Spruce paring chisels one day soon. I consider them the best in the business. I currently use the LN bevel edge and mortise chisels. The quality is impeccable. The only reason I want a set of Blue Spruce chisels is to have a long paring chisel.

As for O1 vs A2 vs PMV11, I have them all and my thought is that although O1 can be honed to a finer edge, after a few shavings that edge is back to the A2 standard, and a few more and it is less sharp than the A2 or PMV11. So to each his own. I like the A2. I have not had enough time with the PMV11 to decide if I like it better, but without a doubt it is long lasting and I found it sharpened easily enough on water stones.

[Patrick Chase]

There is a glaring inaccuracy in David Savage's criticism of the Blue Spruce chisel.

David Savage extolls the virtue of Japanese chisels ("Other blades than (sic) have found a place in our hearts are from Japan".).

He criticises Blue Spruce for honing their blades at 30 degrees. Not because the steel is A2, but because it is honed at 30 degrees - and remember, these are bench chisels, the same as the Japanese. ("A2 steel holds a very good edge for a very long time especially when it is above 30° honing angle. However our tests have shown when we are honing at a lower angle nearer 25 degrees or even below 25 degrees for hand paring the A2 steel does not take as keen an edge as it is possible to get on high carbon and crucible steel blades. So I am sorry to say that I have to stick with the steel bananas.")

BUT ... Japanese blades are also honed at 30 degrees!

If that is the sum of his argument, then he has no basis for his criticism.

While I mostly agree with your statement there is a kernel of truth to what David Savage says, that is grounded in a fundamental difference between HCS/Crucible and A2.

Alloy steels like A2 have coarser grain structures than HCS/O1, with fairly sizeable carbides. If you have Hock's sharpening book he presents micrographs that show this much better than any number of words possibly can.

Those carbides are very hard and abrasion resistant, and account for A2's well-known edge life. Unfortunately they're fairly weakly bonded to the surrounding metal, and if you hone the steel at too low of an angle such that they aren't well supported then they will chip out in use, leading to edge dulling. D2 is particularly bad in this regard at lower angles, and after thinking about it I think it's exactly what George was describing when he said that D2 initially dulls quickly (as the "vulnerable" carbides chip out), but then levels off at a certain point and stays there forever (due to the wear resistance of the remaining carbides). This phenomenon is very real and easily observed under a good microscope.

In fact everything Savage said was technically valid and defensible *except* the part about Japanese chisels. Japanese chisels are hardened to the mid Rc60s, at which point HCS also becomes brittle and susceptible to edge chipping, though with different failure mechanism than A2. That's why those chisels also need high edge angles as you pointed out.

IMO he's dead right about Western-style HCS/O1 chisels hardened to Rc60 and below - those do hold up better than A2 with low edge angles. so if you like lower angles then such chisels are probably the better choice. To be honest Blue Spruce's choice of A2 for *paring* chisels has always baffled me. That's a poster child application for low angles and low-allow steels.

This also relates to my only critique of your steel comparison article[s]. They're terrific comparisons into which you obviously poured an incredible amount of knowledge and effort, and I've read them more than once and learned from them. I don't think they're entirely representative of what a user would see once they took the trouble to experiment with their chisels and optimized the bevel angle for each. Similarly (and as you acknowledge) your sharpening processes weren't very well optimized for super-hard steels like CPM-10V. Unfortunately that isn't a reasonable amount of work to expect a single person with a day job to invest, and your comparison is the best we have.

A couple other notes:

- Everything I said above assumes conventional processing. Powder metallurgy changes the rules by making the carbides MUCH smaller. That's why PM-V11 takes and holds a very fine edge despite its obviously high Chromium content (it's degree of stain resistance implies >=15%) and consequent preponderance of chromium carbide. If conventionally processed it would probably be as bad as or worse than D2, to which I suspect that it's closely related albeit with more Chromium.

- If you hone a high-alloy steel like A2 with overly soft abrasives then the carbides will fall out during honing (because you'll "erode" the metal around the carbides without actually sharpening them) leading to a micro-chipped edge right off the stone/strop.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Additionally, many of us today use devices such as iPads, with screen keypads that are not user friendly to man-sized fingers, or with a variety of auto-chaning enabled.

With this thread, I had several items draw me in: David Savage (I find him to artsy craftsy for my taste), A2 steel (since it came on the scene, I've come to not like it for edge tools) and O1 (my favorite, along with W1, for my edge tool use).

Owning a metal working business (website is metaltech-pm.com), I find it funny how far some will go to make certain tool steels palatable for use. Just this week, I was "campaigned" to buy and use a D4 material versus a S7 steel for punches, using criteria that the punches will last almost twice as long! What was ignored was the steel costs 4 times as much and requires far more precise heat treating methods to achieve those results. Incidentally, A2 is excellent for tool punches in my industry, but I found it most curious when it showed up for edge tool (the other day, I took a tally of chisels and planes I mostly use, and surprise, the ones always used were not A2 equipped, though some of the less frequent were-maybe my subconscious perception was guiding me to the tools more easily honed and maintained?).

[george wilson]

I have to agree that W1 and 01 will take a BIT of a sharper edge than A2. W1(simple high carbon steel with no other alloying) takes the keenest edge of all the tool steels. But,how sharp an edge do you really need? A2 will take a very sharp edge. The only instance I have found for myself when A2 would just NOT get sharp enough was when I was trying to skive down some chrome tanned sea ray skin on the suede,or FLESH side. It was like trying to skive fuzzy soft rubber. I had to get the OLD blade from my PRE A2 LN block plane and sharpen it up very keen. IT would get sharp enough to PLANE the fuzzy ray skin "flesh" side. This was a more severe test than the paring of ANY WOOD,which is at least a RIGID material which will not just sluff under when a blade goes over it.

As for the effectiveness of A2 steel,I made the coopers a few plane irons from A2 steel. I felt sorry for them planing white oak all day,with only their TOO FINE Ohio sandstone wheel to sharpen their blade. I think the sandstone wheels that Williamsburg had made up custom were from WAY TOO FINE a grade of sandstone. When these wheels were the standard wheels for sharpening woodworking tools,a much greater variety was available. I have a NOS Civil War period sandstone wheel,and it is MUCH coarser. A bunch of them were found in the basement of an OLD warehouse in Norfolk when it burned down in the 70's. This guy was selling them to people to put at the END OF THEIR DRIVE WAYS!! No telling how many went that way. What a waste. I think I got the last 2. I let one go to someone,but have forgotten who. The old warehouse also had a large quantity of hand forged hardware. No telling what happened to that.

The coopers were delighted with the performance of their new irons,which were still hand forged,and could not easily be told, except by VERY CLOSE AND KNOWLEDGEABLE OBSERVATION from bitted blacksmith irons made from 1070 carbon steel. I left them as forged and black. This was a severe test of the increased durability of A2 steel in holding an edge. The cutting of white oak staves was not helped by the dirt which accumulated on the edges of the staves where they were stored.

Tool steels,as I have often written,are always a trade off,except perhaps in the case of the new powdered metal blades. I haven't enough experience with them to make a good judgement. I should try skiving my ray skin with my LV PM VII blade, REALLY. The more highly alloyed the steel is,to increase the wear resistance,the LESS sharp an edge it will take. Period. There is no free lunch (PM's excepted,possibly. I don't know.)

[Tony Zaffuto]

Owning a powder metal plant and having a ball park idea of how PM V11 is processed, with the right metals recipe, you can achieve the best of all worlds, though I'm sure the development and processing time was enormous. I bought a plane blade and chisel, using the material to experiment with. The chisel is used for woodworking and one of my favorites-takes a very keen edge and has a very comfortable handle. The plane blade was block plane size, bought for my curiousity to destroy it-by trying to break it, over heat it it, sharpen to less than 20 degrees, etc. I'm impressed! Also it sharpened easily on my Spyderco stones, with a spritz of water.

[george wilson]

Glad to hear that,Tony!

[Patrick Chase]

As for the effectiveness of A2 steel,I made the coopers a few plane irons from A2 steel. I felt sorry for them planing white oak all day,with only their TOO FINE Ohio sandstone wheel to sharpen their blade. I thing the sandstone wheels that Williamsburg had made up custom were from WAY TOO FINE a grade of sandstone.

They were delighted with the performance of their new irons,which were still hand forged,and could not easily be told from bitted blacksmith irons made from 1070 carbon steel. This was a severe test of the increased durability of A2 steel in holding an edge. The cutting of white oak staves was not helped by the dirt which accumulated on the edges of the staves where they were stored.

I think that A2 is a good choice for BD planes. In that case the cutting angle is fixed and high, so the fact that you need a 30+ deg edge angle to avoid chipping isn't a concern. Savage's critique and my remarks were both specifically about chisels with low edge angles, as for paring. A2 is problematic in a way that O1 isn't at 25 deg and below. It will take a good edge at those angles with the right sharpening media, but it will chip.

Tool steels,as I have often written,are always a trade off,except perhaps in the case of the new powdered metal blades. I haven't enough experience with them to make a good judgement. I should try skiving my ray skin with my LV PM VII blade, REALLY. The more highly alloyed the steel is,to increase the wear resistance,the LESS sharp an edge it will take. Period. There is no free lunch (PM's excepted,possibly. I don't know.)

Yep. Even with PM there's no totally free lunch (those carbides are still there, just much smaller and more uniform) but it's definitely a much nicer set of tradeoffs.