Dust collection, round 2 - PSI?

[Victor Robinson]

I'm considering the purchase of a Penn State 1.5hp Dustroyer (DC2V3). This will be my second attempt to get "real" DC in my shop.

Questions for those that may have this collector:
1) 11" impeller and advertised 1250 CFM. Seems a little better equipped than the HFDC to handle ~25' runs?
2) Advertised 67db noise level. I know it can't be THAT quiet (that would put it on the same level as my 14" bandsaw not under load or my Fein vac), but is it a relatively quieter collector? What makes these collectors quiet or loud anyways? They all seem to be the exact same design.

Priorities for me are noise (neighbors houses are attached) and the ability to handle a permanent system with 25' runs (one tool at a time of course). The HFDC failed at the noise part, clocking in around 90db. Yes, I know the DC noise is drowned out by louder tools, but I'd still rather my neighbors hear one tool rather than two, and since they're practically right on top of me, they do hear everything.

I'd probably add a Wynn canister to this collector at a later point.

Thanks all!

[Wade Lippman]

All i know is that my psi 1hp dc said it drew 10a but actually drew 5a. When i emailed psi they didn't reply.
I wouldn't consider one of their products.

[Ole Anderson]

I had PSI on my short list when choosing a cyclone as I already owned one of their 1 hp 2 baggers. But, like Wade, when I started asking questions like what gauge metal was their cyclone, they clammed up like they had something to hide, leaving a sour taste in my mouth. Went with Oneida. The claim 1250 cfm and 8" of suction, but not at the same time. And to get 1.5 hp out of an 11 amp draw takes a pretty efficient motor. On the plus side, an 11" impeller is a good start on a moveable collector like the one you are looking at. For adequate collection with stationary tools like a TS using a duct system, you should be looking at a machine that pulls near 800 cfm at around 6-8" of suction, but then you are probably at a whole different price point. And while 1 micron bags at 99% is a whole lot better than the old 30 micron bags, they still fall short of most better filters which are near HEPA quality. PSI's nano filters appear to hit the mark, but even going with the bag/filter version doesn't get you that quality of filter. If you go with a plastic bag/Wynn combo as you state, you are going in the right direction. And if you add a pre-separator as many do, you have a total system. But, now you have more money and effort in it, and each improvement eats into the cfm available at the tool as each improvement causes losses in the system. I don't know what your shop looks like and if you have invested much into your tools, or you financial situation, but I encourage everyone to look at the dust collector as one of your major tools and invest appropriately. I know not everyone is in the position to afford, or even fit, a 3 hp cyclone in their shop, but if at all possible, put it on your bucket list.

[Victor Robinson]

I had PSI on my short list when choosing a cyclone as I already owned one of their 1 hp 2 baggers. But, like Wade, when I started asking questions like what gauge metal was their cyclone, they clammed up like they had something to hide, leaving a sour taste in my mouth. Went with Oneida. The claim 1250 cfm and 8" of suction, but not at the same time. And to get 1.5 hp out of an 11 amp draw takes a pretty efficient motor. On the plus side, an 11" impeller is a good start on a moveable collector like the one you are looking at. For adequate collection with stationary tools like a TS using a duct system, you should be looking at a machine that pulls near 800 cfm at around 6-8" of suction, but then you are probably at a whole different price point. And while 1 micron bags at 99% is a whole lot better than the old 30 micron bags, they still fall short of most better filters which are near HEPA quality. PSI's nano filters appear to hit the mark, but even going with the bag/filter version doesn't get you that quality of filter. If you go with a plastic bag/Wynn combo as you state, you are going in the right direction. And if you add a pre-separator as many do, you have a total system. But, now you have more money and effort in it, and each improvement eats into the cfm available at the tool as each improvement causes losses in the system. I don't know what your shop looks like and if you have invested much into your tools, or you financial situation, but I encourage everyone to look at the dust collector as one of your major tools and invest appropriately. I know not everyone is in the position to afford, or even fit, a 3 hp cyclone in their shop, but if at all possible, put it on your bucket list.

Completely agree with everything you said, Ole. I've got a decent (albeit small) shop with good tools, but the DC is an area I've not invested quite as much time, effort, or money, largely because I haven't come across a solution that satisfies one of my main priorities: noise. I'm not going to put the $ or effort into permanent ducts until I can get a relatively quiet solution.

I'd be willing to invest in a much more expensive DC than the PSI unit I've mentioned, but the PSI piqued my interest because of its supposed decibel rating.

[Ole Anderson]

My shop isn't that big, an elongated 350 sf, but I stole a little bit of room at the foot of my stairs, and moved a wall to make a sound insulated (Roxul safe n'sound) DC closet with a heavy door (sandwich of OSB/drywall/OSB. Made a large difference. Check out my video showing the difference with a decibel meter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8qwMqm3Ek

[Victor Robinson]

My shop isn't that big, an elongated 350 sf, but I stole a little bit of room at the foot of my stairs, and moved a wall to make a sound insulated (Roxul safe n'sound) DC closet with a heavy door (sandwich of OSB/drywall/OSB. Made a large difference. Check out my video showing the difference with a decibel meter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8qwMqm3Ek

Thanks Ole...I had seen your video a while back, and it inspired me at that time to me to spend much time staring at the little nook I have for my DC and think about whether I can enclose it. It MIGHT be possible. I have basically a 30"x40" footprint available that I could potentially be enclosing, but fitting in a small door and having enough room to get at the bag/can might be difficult. Perhaps I will post a pic of that little corner of my garage and see if you or anyone has ideas on how it could be effectively enclosed.

[Jim Neeley]

All i know is that my psi 1hp dc said it drew 10a but actually drew 5a. When i emailed psi they didn't reply.
I wouldn't consider one of their products.

FWIW, the electrical load on a Dust Collector motor is directly related to its ability to get intake air. If you start the DC with all your intakes closed off it will draw its lowest amount of current. With no inlet hose or pipe it will draw the most as the unit can swallow (and compress) the largest mass of air.

This is the reason why some DC's (such as my Clearvue cyclone) come with a note not to run the DC until you have DC piping attached, as you may overload the (even 5hp) motor.

You likely know this Wade, but others here may not so I'm passing it on for all.

My $0.02... YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

[Wade Lippman]

FWIW, the electrical load on a Dust Collector motor is directly related to its ability to get intake air. If you start the DC with all your intakes closed off it will draw its lowest amount of current. With no inlet hose or pipe it will draw the most as the unit can swallow (and compress) the largest mass of air.

This is the reason why some DC's (such as my Clearvue cyclone) come with a note not to run the DC until you have DC piping attached, as you may overload the (even 5hp) motor.

You likely know this Wade, but others here may not so I'm passing it on for all.

My $0.02... YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

5a with hose and bag removed. The 10a was about as truthful as the OP's 67db.

[Rick Christopherson]

All i know is that my psi 1hp dc said it drew 10a but actually drew 5a. When i emailed psi they didn't reply.
I wouldn't consider one of their products.

A 1 hp motor draws 10 amps at 120 volts, or 5 amps at 240 volts. Which configuration do you have the motor set up for?

hp = I x V x pf x eff / 746 = 5 x 240 x 0.8 x 0.8 / 746 = 1.03 hp

Edit: BTW, with a blocked inlet, the motor will be fully unloaded (idle), and an induction motor at idle will draw about 50% of its FLA.

[David Kumm]

you are asking a lot to power 25' runs with a 1.5 hp impeller. Filtration efficiency is less relevant when the cfm is low at the machine as lots of dust never gets into the system. Working cfm is likely more like 400-600 best case. You will never be able to put a cyclone in front of that impeller and maintain adequate flow. If you send for the pipe and fittings for a stationary system, save up and pop for a 3 hp. You can start out with bags- 2 micron and upgrade down the road to cartridges if you add a separator. CFM trumps the additional filtration of hepa or nano in your situation. Dave

[Wade Lippman]

A 1 hp motor draws 10 amps at 120 volts, or 5 amps at 240 volts. Which configuration do you have the motor set up for?

Gosh, I don't know. The nameplate said 120v, but maybe they were wrong about that also! (My point was it wasn't really a 1hp motor...)

[Rick Christopherson]

Gosh, I don't know. The nameplate said 120v, but maybe they were wrong about that also! (My point was it wasn't really a 1hp motor...)

Unlike router and compressor manufacturers, the claimed horsepower on dust collectors isn't an area where I suspect one to be playing numbers games. They will play games with CFM ratings, but can't really get away with it on horsepower ratings.

Measuring the amperage on an induction motor to determine its power can be a little tricky, because the powerfactor term is a variable that changes with the actual load being applied to that motor. This can get confusing to the average person, because when they read about pf on the internet, it mistakenly gets lumped in with "efficiency" as a single number. However, the efficiency is a fixed number that never changes for that particular motor, but the powerfactor is constantly changing for the very same motor. When an induction motor is running at idle, its powerfactor is way down to 0.1, but under full load, it will reach 0.8 or even 0.9 (depending on where the engineer decided to set the max-power rating at).

If your 5-amp reading came when the motor was running with no load, then it would be expected that you have a 1-hp motor. However, if that reading came when the motor was at full load with unrestricted air inlet, then I would be very concerned for 2 possible reasons. Obviously this could imply that you actually have a 1/2-hp motor. On the other hand, it could be a sign that you have your motor configured for 240V but supplying it with 120V power.

[Wade Lippman]

Unlike router and compressor manufacturers, the claimed horsepower on dust collectors isn't an area where I suspect one to be playing numbers games. They will play games with CFM ratings, but can't really get away with it on horsepower ratings.

So the HF 12a and 7a dust collectors really are 2hp and 1hp like they claim? They are either very special motors or they lie. (and that assumes they even draw what HF claims...)

[Rick Christopherson]

So the HF 12a and 7a dust collectors really are 2hp and 1hp like they claim? They are either very special motors or they lie. (and that assumes they even draw what HF claims...)

It is starting to sound like you have an axe to grind, and that is not why I chose to participate in this discussion. So I am going to bow out unless there is something new.

By the way, those numbers would be appropriate for a low-efficiency motor at 240 volts. So if that is what they are for, then I see no problem.

[Duane Meadows]

The 10a was about as truthful as the OP's 67db.

The decibel(dB) is a ratio(logarithmic, but still a ratio). As such without a reference, it is meaningless. 67dB compared to what? Without a reference that add spec could be correct, and yet tell as nothing!

Here are a few of the standards commonly used.. dBm, dBW, dBV, dBmV, dBμV, dBu, dBμA, dBHz, dBSPL, dBA.

One might assume that its dBSPL, but you know what they sat about "assuming"

As for the HP, amperage, power factor, efficiency question, you will almost never get any agreement on that, especially on a forum. I pretty much agree with Rick except for one small point. efficiency of an induction motor is not a constant, but also a curve dependant on percent full load. Much less a curve than power factor, but a curve non the less. Most times on smaller hobbiest type equipment, input(power consumption) not output power is specified. so efficiency doesn't come it the equation. Power factor probably should, but my guess again is it usually doesn't. Just doesn't support the advertiser goal!

CFM and static pressure also depend on condition and method of measurement.

So, what's the bottom line? Compare ratings on a number of similar systems... if you find one that seems drastically out of range from the norm, it probably is. Except for premium for some names, you generally more or less get what you pay for. I wish there were a definitive answer. There isn't. Generally bigger is better, but shortcoming of a smaller DC can be over come with better/shorter, larger diameter hose. Not quite so much the other way around. You can argue specs as much as wish, but the bottom line is.. "does it work for you"? As always, YMMV.