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Thread: Running new wire...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Cool Running new wire...

    I have an electrician friend of mine coming to run new wiring into my new shop space.

    I don't want to sound like a complete boob, and of course have some outside perspective to take into consideration.

    Here's what I got so far...
    - Existing panel is 25' from shop
    - All existing machines are 120v (don't see this changing), no more than 10 amp
    - Looking to put in (4) 4 foot 2 bulb (40x, T12) fluorescent lights
    - 10-12 receptacles with grounds
    - 2 small exhaust fans (approx. 6" x 8")

    What are your basic recommendations, wire, breakers, etc...

    This will be my first actual shop.
    Any other electrical suggestions, things you'd do differently, things you wish you had but don't, anything, anything at all.
    I want to make this as safe and beneficial as possible the first go round (without spending an arm & a leg)
    As with most of us, my desires far outweigh my monetary restrictions.

    Appreciate anything you can offer...

    TIA,
    JON
    Last edited by Jon Wilson; 11-30-2013 at 2:16 AM.

  2. #2
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    Your electrician friend will know what type of wire to use. Most common is Romex style cable. The ultimate in flexibility for a shop is surface mounted conduit, but it generally costs more for materials and labor. Conduit would allow adding or moving receptacles much easier than wiring buried in walls.

    I would wire receptacles with 20 amp circuits. You may want to consider adding a 220 volt circuit now unless it can be added easily later. You'll be kicking yourself down the road when you decide to add a 220 volt tool that you never thought you would get.

  3. #3
    How large, L x W?

    Four lights as described do not sound like enough but that depends on square footage, ceiling height and wall color.

    10-12 receptacles may or may not be adequate depending again on your square footage, number of machines and shop layout. Personally I would have one every four feet of wall space and no less than 6 feet, with probably more on the work bench. Alternatively, install the boxes on the wall, pass the wire through it, skip the outlet and cover it with a blind plate, then you have built in expansion should you need it later.

    Mount the outlet boxes just above four feet from the floor, that way if lean 4 x 8 sheets against the wall you do not hide the outlets.

    Consider drop cords with strain reliefs from the ceiling and/or retractable 110v reels. Again you can pre-wire those and add them later if desired.

    Consider 220v for a dust control system, air compressor or welder if any of those would ever be in your future plans.

    Two exhaust fans sound like a great idea. Smaller bathroom fans may help a little but are under-sized teasers. Check your cfm and compare that to the volume of the shop to see how long it would take to change the air. Even though you could change all of the air in X minutes, that does not mean all of the dust goes with it.

    Ceiling fan or fans for air circulation / cooling?
    Overhead garage door openers?

    I know it is unrelated to wiring, but in my former garage I plumbed it with an airline through out the shop, with an outlet outdoors in front and in the rear. As it was an attached garage I even ran a branch line into the basement mechanical room. Later I found it handy and a smart idea using it on occasion.

  4. #4
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    Is the 25' inside the same building structure, or detached?
    Basically your "sparky" friend is going to install a sub panel. the sub panel will be "fed" from a breaker in the Main Service Panel, or another sub panel if one exists.
    He will calculate your "available ampacity" from the layout and circuit designation in the Main Service Panel to determine what sized breaker you can feed your new panel with.
    The "pull" to your new panel will be a 4/C Romex, if in the same building, "quad plex" if direct buried to a detached building. The new "feed will have two "hots", one "neutral", and a "ground".
    The two "hots" will be terminated to either the panel "lugs", or a "service breaker" inside the panel. The Neutral will be attached to the lug on a "bar", that is isolated, electrically, from the sub panel box ,and the "equipment ground" bar. The ground will be attached to the "equipment ground". "Ground" and "Neutral" will be tied back to the Service Panel.
    Your "grounding" scheme is impossible to determine for anyone not seeing your current installation. If the existing wiring predates 2005, the grounding scheme may change a little to be code compliant today. "Electrically" tough, "Ground" and "Neutral" will end up at the same reference potential when it's all said and done.

    Your friend will wire your sub panel with "240" to the "lugs", and "split" the loads, to "balance" the "Neutral Return" on the "120's". This is done internally via the bus bar strategy of whatever panel you select as a Sub Panel. He, or she, will divide and separate your lighting and duplex receptacles as required and install GFCI's where code required.

    Wires are referred to as "conductors". Black and Red will be the "Hots". White will be the" Neutral", and the bare copper wire is ground. "Conductors" carry current. "Ground" hopefully never does.

    Neutral is the "Grounded Conductor". It is not "Ground" because it carries current, but it is referenced to ground at the Main Service Panel ( Generally in residential or rural systems.)
    The "Ground Wire" is part of the "Grounding" system. "Grounding" and "Grounded" ,are not same thing.

    All of your duplex receptacle will have a ground, as will virtually every other electrical device. "Ground" carries throughout the entire system. Ground is your friend.

    You'll get a lot of hypothetic feed back based on folks knowledge and experience with "the code", (NEC, or National Electrical Code.) Problem is that the "Code" is not uniformly applied across the board, state to state, or town to town. Point being that no matter what I say, or anyone else says, it's your friend the electrician and the building inspector that have the "real" say.
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 11-30-2013 at 7:04 AM.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  5. #5
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    Jon, don't worry about sounding like a "boob", you were smart enough to take yourself out of that league when you asked a pro to help with something you weren't comfortable DIY. A boob would have had to had professional help after the fire....

    I don't really have anything to add about the actual circuits you need, the guys above have that covered pretty well, but will add that working with a friendly pro an a jobsite can give you a heck of a learning experience. It would be a great opportunity to ask the questions as they come up that help you get a sound basic working knowledge of a modern electrical system. That's going to be valuable in the future too.
    Last edited by Steve Rozmiarek; 11-30-2013 at 7:37 PM. Reason: Shish, I can't spell...

  6. #6
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    My shop is located about 100 feet from my house and used to be just an unheated storage building for a boat, lawn mower and stuff like that, with one corner for woodworking. I wired it for 240VAC @ 50 amps because that was way more than I could imagine ever needing. Well, that was a big mistake. I didn't count on getting serious about woodworking and turning the whole building into a shop. I hope you don't regret limiting your options in the future like I did.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    Well, that was a big mistake. I didn't count on getting serious about woodworking and turning the whole building into a shop. I hope you don't regret limiting your options in the future like I did.
    My shop has a 60 amp feed. I have complete woodworking shop, plus welders (MIG and stick,) along with metal cutting band saws, plus other hand tools for metal working. Never once in 33 years have I tripped main breaker. Only breaker that has tripped in use is 20 amp feeding tablesaw with 2.0 HP (real HP, not Craftsman HP. Motor draws 19.8 amps on 110. When doing EXTENDED ripping, sometimes breaker will kick out. But the operator needs a rest also, so that's no problem.

  8. #8
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    One side note, don't use t12, but use t8 or t5. t12s are basically obsolete and the light per watt is a whole lot better with t8s anyway. Best couple hundred I've spent in years was replacing some t12s with t8s and 5100k daylight bulbs.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wrenn View Post
    My shop has a 60 amp feed. I have complete woodworking shop, plus welders (MIG and stick,) along with metal cutting band saws, plus other hand tools for metal working. Never once in 33 years have I tripped main breaker. Only breaker that has tripped in use is 20 amp feeding tablesaw with 2.0 HP (real HP, not Craftsman HP. Motor draws 19.8 amps on 110. When doing EXTENDED ripping, sometimes breaker will kick out. But the operator needs a rest also, so that's no problem.
    I think the original poster's biggest mistake could be only running 120VAC. In my case, I use an 18A, 240VAC heater and a 240VAC, 7.5A dust collector. Those two items often run simultaneously and consume half the total capacity. Of course, the lights also run continuously and consume another 5 amps or so on one leg, leaving me with 20A capacity on that leg. I haven't tripped a breaker either but I have to be careful about what else I run. The other problem I have is that, due to the long run from the main breaker, the voltage drops several volts under a heavy load.

  10. #10
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    Ditto on the T8's or T5's.
    Depending on your ceiling height T5's may be too bright.

    Definitely plan on at least 1 240V line, two would be better. There is a LOT of lightly used 3 phase equipment going at bargain basement prices in the Maryland/Virginia area, all you need is an RPC to run them.
    Setting up a workshop, from standing tree to bookshelves

  11. #11
    Jon, the first thing you need to determine is the overall load (a load is anything that consumes electrical power) of everything you will be putting in your shop and how many machines of what ampacity will possibly be running at any given time.

    For instance, let's say you have a dust collector that draws 10 amps and a 120v table saw that draws 12 amps. You won't be able to put both of those on the same circuit and expect them to run at the same time. So at the very minimum, you'd need (2) 20A circuits for general power in your shop.

    As for lighting, I put my shop lighting on a separate circuit. I have (6) 8' twin-tube HO florescent fixtures in my shop with 6500K lamps in them. I like to be able to see what I'm doing. I split the switching with (3) fixtures on each of (2) switches. I also have a 4' twin-tube fluorescent over the lathe and another over the workbench, both on separate switches. All are T12 but the workbench fixture. Today I'd go with T8 throughout. My workshop is about 11x26 with a 3x8 bump out where the lathe is. So that's a little over 300 sq/ft and I find the lighting sufficient. The 6500K fluorescent lamp will boost the light output over the standard lamps.

    In my shop, I put the dust collector on its own circuit and I have (3) 20A circuits feeding the receptacles all around the shop. So, with the lighting, that's (5) single pole breakers that feed the shop. My electrical panel is in the workshop. If my shop was 25' away, I would have run conduit for a sub panel that would be installed in the shop and run circuits out from there. But I didn't have to hire an electrician to do this cuz I are one.

    The "floor" tools in my shop are a table saw with a 3-1/4 HP router, a band saw, a drum sander, a miter saw station and a lathe. There's also a table mounted drill press, spindle sander and mortising machine. All of these are run in conjunction with the dust collector. I have a shop vac and a dust collector vac and a number of powered hand tools that might be run with either of them. In the almost 20 years I've had the shop set up, I've never tripped a breaker.

    This is just to give you an idea of electrical loads that may be in a given workshop. When your electrician gets there, have some information with you that will tell him what kind of loads you will have in your shop, now or in the future. If you go the sub panel route, you need to know the anticipated loads so you're not upping the size of the sub panel in the future.

  12. #12
    A few things (some have been highlighted earlier):

    1) Put a new panel in the shop for future flexibility and ease of adding circuits. In many cases a house panel package (with main breaker) can be cheaper than a subpanel and it gives you a main cutoff.
    2) Put wall receptacles high enough to allow for sheet goods leaning against the walls.
    3) Consider wiring 20A circuits. Even if you don't use them, the next guy might and it's not that much more expensive than 15A. The outlets may seem more expensive than the cheap 15A ones, it's because they're basically all commercial-grade which is nice to have in a shop.
    4) Alternate circuits for receptacles. This lets you plug a shopvac and a tool into any consecutive receptacles and know for sure that they're on different circuits.

    This isn't strictly an electrical thing, but for your lighting I'd suggest that you look for high CRI bulbs at 5000K or so. You can get CRI 85 or so at Home Depot, but something like the Philips TL950 will give a CRI in the high 90s which is good for colour-matching, staining, etc.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Friesen View Post
    A few things (some have been highlighted earlier):

    1) Put a new panel in the shop for future flexibility and ease of adding circuits. In many cases a house panel package (with main breaker) can be cheaper than a subpanel and it gives you a main cutoff.
    2) Put wall receptacles high enough to allow for sheet goods leaning against the walls.
    3) Consider wiring 20A circuits. Even if you don't use them, the next guy might and it's not that much more expensive than 15A. The outlets may seem more expensive than the cheap 15A ones, it's because they're basically all commercial-grade which is nice to have in a shop.
    4) Alternate circuits for receptacles. This lets you plug a shopvac and a tool into any consecutive receptacles and know for sure that they're on different circuits.

    This isn't strictly an electrical thing, but for your lighting I'd suggest that you look for high CRI bulbs at 5000K or so. You can get CRI 85 or so at Home Depot, but something like the Philips TL950 will give a CRI in the high 90s which is good for colour-matching, staining, etc.
    20A receptacles are a waste of money, don't need them & any piece of equipment needing a 20A plug would be required to be on a separate circuit. I have them in my shop but had them around, so would not made any difference in cost in my case.

  14. #14
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    Many good ideas here, my comments in blue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Friesen View Post
    A few things (some have been highlighted earlier):

    1) Put a new panel in the shop for future flexibility and ease of adding circuits. In many cases a house panel package (with main breaker) can be cheaper than a subpanel and it gives you a main cutoff. Highly recommend putting a panel in the shop rather than numerous circuits running from the shop to the existing panel. This will lend itself to easier changes to the shop electrical system in the future. My shop is a standard size attached 2 car garage and I put in a 60 amp sub-panel.
    2) Put wall receptacles high enough to allow for sheet goods leaning against the walls.
    3) Consider wiring 20A circuits. Even if you don't use them, the next guy might and it's not that much more expensive than 15A. The outlets may seem more expensive than the cheap 15A ones, it's because they're basically all commercial-grade which is nice to have in a shop. I agree with the 120 volt circuits being 20 amp.
    4) Alternate circuits for receptacles. This lets you plug a shopvac and a tool into any consecutive receptacles and know for sure that they're on different circuits. Another good idea. Lends itself to running a shop vac and a sander or router at the same time.

    This isn't strictly an electrical thing, but for your lighting I'd suggest that you look for high CRI bulbs at 5000K or so. You can get CRI 85 or so at Home Depot, but something like the Philips TL950 will give a CRI in the high 90s which is good for colour-matching, staining, etc.
    Good lighting is very important. I should probably upgrade the lighting at my place. I currently have (5) 4 foot, 2 Lamp, T8 strips in my shop.

    Another thing is to do a good job with the dust collection from the start.

    Good luck with it.

    PHM
    Last edited by Paul McGaha; 12-06-2013 at 9:17 AM.

  15. #15
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    Ditto the sub-panel, the 240V capacity, the T-8's, the plug circuits being 20A, and the plug placement above 4'.

    I guess that means I got nuthin' to say, really.

    Rick Potter

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